- AJ Jones. - Yes, sir.
 - How the heck are you?
 - I'm good.
 - You look resplendent and it's a tragedy we're not filming
 because people are missing the glory.
 - I look resplendent.
 Why are we lying to people?
 - If you look resplendent to me, you look glorious.
 - Thank you. - Beautiful and.
 - Thank you. - It could be
 because I've missed you.
 - Oh.
 - I know that's nice to be missed.
 - Yeah, are we could catch up as I was in Toronto
 all last week?
 - You were?
 - I left you.
 - You did?
 - To fend for yourself with four children.
 - You did?
 - What was that like?
 - I didn't get a lot of sleep.
 - I don't imagine you wouldn't.
 - I do love that we have the system down of switching off
 feeds so that we each get to get some sleep.
 And yeah, one of us is missing, but that's gone.
 - Yeah, I bet.
 I went up to Canada to teach at one of my favorite schools,
 one of our favorite schools.
 The Toronto, I was gonna say the Toronto airport,
 nope, that's not right.
 Cash-afar Toronto School of Ministry.
 I was a student on that school 20 years ago.
 - You were.
 - That did something to my head.
 - Did it?
 - Oh yeah, 'cause 20 years is a long time.
 - Look at you, you gray haired splendor.
 - And it doesn't feel like 20 years.
 And I went out for a walk about where I used to walk
 20 years ago as a student.
 And I realized that I'm now living in everything I prayed for
 that I didn't know how to ask for.
 - It's pretty amazing.
 - Yeah, I was just walking alone at night.
 - You wouldn't have known what you wanted.
 - Well, no, no, no, a lot of stuff I did want.
 I wanted a hot smoking wife who's a prophet, got that.
 - Thanks, babe.
 - I did, like I always wanted to marry a prophet.
 And I always wanted to marry somebody hot.
 And you're both.
 - Oh, thanks, Darden.
 - And you're Canadian, so throw that in.
 - I mean, throw it in.
 But just to be back in a place that meant so much to me and had so much impact on my life
 and transform my life really and then to be able to come back as a speaker and so into
 those next batch of students was fun.
 Yeah, I love teaching on the school.
 It's a great school.
 In addition to teaching on school, I got to hang out with all of our Canadian friends.
 I know.
 I was jealous of that.
 I was like, I mean, I love taking so full.
 I'm glad you sent me the pictures, but I was like, I want to see them.
 I am curious, like, what was your week like?
 I mean, that's the weekly catch up over.
 I went to Toronto basically and taught on boundaries
 and then flew home and saw you.
 What did you do?
 You literally just don't remember
 because you were sleep deprived.
 - Well, you know, it actually wasn't that hard.
 Other than the getting up at night,
 you know, like getting sleep in two hour intervals
 during the night, which I knew that's what we were doing.
 You know what I mean?
 You know when you're just like,
 you go in for it and you're like,
 "Yeah, that's what this is gonna look like."
 And I knew it was only looking like that for a week,
 which, you know, when you consider the previous three children,
 that was my life for like three months.
 And you were also in agony?
 Yes.
 So I was like, it's also worth noting our huge
 gratitude to everybody who bought you food while I was away.
 Yes. Now that was a game changer because every, every evening,
 a meal arrived that you were away.
 And so, and the kids make their own lunch.
 So all I had to do was.
 -Caffeinate yourself. -Caffeinate myself and make myself lunch.
 If I happen to her, but you know what I'm like,
 I'll forget to eat lunch if you're not here.
 So I just sort of like would eat a couple of crackers or whatever.
 But yeah, that was super helpful.
 -A huge thank you to our community.
 -She was sweet, so she did real well.
 -When we go back, we went to the dog trust pediatrician visit,
 and our daughter has put on two pounds.
 -She's boss.
 -She is.
 -Seven pounds, eight ounces.
 -Come on, come on, come on. -Just rocking it.
 So, yep.
 I don't know if we've mentioned this, but our pediatrician is right next to Mojo's tacos.
 So we try and book lunchtime pediatrician visits so that we can avail ourselves of tacos.
 So we go for a little date.
 Well, I missed you. I'm glad to be back.
 Thank you.
 Our main topic for this week is something I have wanted to talk about for months now.
 Okay.
 Earlier last year, I had to collect my calendar to work out when I started.
 Last year, early last year, I started something that I'd been wanting to plan for years,
 but my contemplate or slash my fear got in the way.
 Okay.
 Was it five, six years ago you and I went and did the Sage Hill training?
 No, it's probably five years ago.
 We went and did Sage Hill training. Sage Hill is an organization here, social impact organization
 that is built up a bunch of counselors and therapists, and they offer training.
 And we went and did, it was a year long training,
 split over several weekends.
 Yeah.
 And half of it was basically group therapy.
 And half of it was instruction and teaching and training
 about the systems approaches, the things that we use.
 Structured employees, not like myself.
 Yeah.
 To manage pain and trauma.
 And then you get to work out a lot of the stuff you're learning
 in the group process.
 Yes.
 And I loved it so much because I think by that time I'd been in group therapy for about a year.
 And group therapy for me was one of the most transformative things I have ever done.
 It's one of my favorite things I've ever done. But I didn't know how it worked. At one point,
 you know, I'd describe it as magic. I didn't know how it worked. And then going to that training
 and learning some of the stuff, I was like, "Oh, this is amazing." But they also offered
 Module 2, which was how to run groups like this. Right. Which you went and did. I didn't do it.
 I went back and did, I want to say 2019, I think.
 I think so.
 It was just before the pandemic.
 And I so loved that.
 I so loved learning the approaches to group dynamics
 and how to run a group.
 And I absolutely loved it.
 And it was a delight to do.
 And at the end of that, I mean, the whole point
 was to be trained how to run groups.
 And I really wanted to start a group,
 but talk about imposter syndrome.
 Like, let's start a group which is using a lot of group therapy principles.
 Yeah.
 But I'm not a therapist and I'm not a counselor.
 I mean, that's not imagine the posture syndrome.
 It really is involves a syndrome.
 But I mean, you know, I work hard to make it very, very clear.
 I'm not a therapist and I'm not a counselor.
 I'm a pastor who has a passion for people and the group dynamics can be used
 outside of therapeutic practice.
 Yeah.
 So I thought I really want to do this.
 I prayed about it for a long time.
 And before I actually started this,
 this is when we were still at Grayson.
 I remember chatting with Jeff Dollar, our senior pastor,
 and just saying, "Jeff, I've got a heart to do this with men."
 And he was like, "I think that is a great idea.
 "Should absolutely do it."
 And I also called Stephen James, the CEO of Sage Hill,
 who was also the person who trained me.
 And just, "Stephen, this is what I want to do.
 "This is my heart.
 "What don't I know about what I'm getting into?"
 And he was super helpful in giving me some structure
 and some framework to make sure I didn't get out over my skis.
 - Sure.
 And then I started a group process group.
 No, what is that?
 A feelings process group.
 - Feelings process group.
 - I know what we call it.
 - A group process group.
 - A feelings process group.
 And again, it was pretty scary.
 Like it's anybody gonna wanna come.
 Because one of those things,
 it doesn't sound particularly appetizing to do.
 - No.
 - It like it really doesn't.
 - It really doesn't.
 - And it produces good fruit,
 but you don't really know what the fruit is
 'cause the fruit's gonna vary from person to person.
 It's like, "Hey, come and do this thing that sounds awkward for some fruit that I'm not
 sure what it will be.
 Are you all in?"
 Right.
 And amazingly, a group of men said yes.
 Right.
 And so, for the last year or so, and I haven't talked about this because it's confidential
 work.
 Yes.
 But for the last year or so, every night, one week, men come over to my house, they sit
 in our unfinished basement, and we process fuels.
 Every night, every week, one night.
 It's going to be a while.
 So my brain is firing on all cylinders.
 - It's okay, sorry, I'll translate for you.
 - So for a while now, I have been curious
 if the man would be willing to talk about their experiences
 in group, which are very brave and vulnerable to do.
 And so I put it to the group and some of the guys said,
 "Yeah, we'd be happy to do that."
 And so we've got many special guests this week.
 - So great, I can't wait to hear it.
 - Are you excited?
 - Yeah, I'm really excited.
 - You have heard of anything all week.
 And so I've loved the way it's turned out.
 I'll be really interested to see if they love the way it turns out.
 (laughs)
 And I'll be interested to know what people think about it,
 but I basically sat down with them to talk about,
 what's it like to be men?
 What's it like to have feelings?
 What's it like to be men with feelings?
 What did you do with your feelings before starting group?
 You know, what have you seen come out of group?
 Good, bad and ugly and you know, what's been your experience?
 - Oh, that's exciting.
 I can't wait.
 - I'm really excited.
 I hope, dear listener, you enjoy this,
 but here's an interview that I did
 with all these men earlier this week.
 All right, gents, here we are in a familiar space,
 probably with unfamiliar territory.
 We're not used to wearing headphones
 and having microphone stuff in our faces,
 but thank you for doing this.
 We're here to talk a little bit about group feelings,
 men and feelings and stuff.
 And I guess my first question would be,
 What is a man's process group?
 Like how do you describe what it is
 to other people if they ask?
 - A bunch of dudes in a circle where their knees touch.
 (both laughing)
 Basically talking through processing feelings
 that they don't know they have or don't know their feeling.
 - We're sitting in a basement, an unfinished basement.
 - Oh, the glamour.
 - Where the climate control is not great.
 - There is no climate control.
 - Yeah, there is no.
 It's you get what you get. Yeah, so you're sitting very close. You have a sheet of emotions at your feet and it's vulnerable, scary, but you don't know how to identify those while you're sitting in it. So it's weird, but safe at the same time.
 Weird, but safe is a pretty good description. It's clumsy, very clumsy, nonstop.
 I would imagine it was a departure from our public facing lives where we're always on,
 we're always performing. We don't show up unprepared, but in group, like, what do you even prepare for?
 It feels like it's ever changing for me, and you never really know what you're stepping into,
 at least for me, because you come in here thinking maybe you're feeling one way,
 and then everything changes. And you're like, "Whoa, I didn't know that was there at all."
 Like you didn't know the feeling was there?
 Oh, no, not at all.
 So you're surprised by your own feelings?
 Absolutely. Every time.
 I will tell people that I'm in a group where we share feelings
 and then I go back to the very first one where you email us and say like,
 I'd like you to bring a list of 10 things about your most painful things.
 And then we get then you're like, now you have to write an essay on one of them.
 And then I say to the people, and then we have to read it out in group.
 And then we get talked to about what we just read.
 What are people's reactions when you describe that, that you do that voluntarily?
 Like it's not, it's not core ordered.
 They are very surprised, but then I tell them that it's helped so much.
 So then they're surprised about that.
 I just tell them that it helps.
 Like after reading this first story, then I say, so then we have to rewrite our store with what everyone's told.
 as what they think about it and it just makes it even a bigger experience.
 I would like to just adjust the language that you're not told to and you don't have to.
 Okay.
 Last people think it's feelings bootcamp with Alyn.
 Yeah, I think it's an opportunity that we have or we come and we spend some time or maybe
 We're not aware during the day or during the week.
 I get to focus on what is actually going on inside of you
 that you haven't looked at,
 that you haven't evaluated and give thought and words
 to the processes that are going on inside
 that you may not be aware there,
 you may be aware of the fruit,
 but don't know what's causing the fruit.
 - Do you guys remember the initial invitation you got?
 Like when you went to the website
 to read the details about it,
 Do you remember anything of what you thought or felt?
 Because you all said yes.
 And I was curious about that because it's not particularly,
 well, tell me what you thought
 when you looked at the invitation.
 - I think it was a mixture of I need this,
 but I'm also terrified of this because I think
 to some degree, I already knew that it would be
 you kind of not, not on probing is the right word,
 but just kind of breaking down our processes.
 And so I think the first time I came out was even late.
 And so that was all that shame of like,
 okay, the first one I'm late,
 and then working through even that
 and seeing how you kind of navigate people through
 or just curious about that is super interesting.
 - Yeah, I'll say, I think I got really excited.
 Actually, there was a lot of fear initially reading the invitation, but I think the the the gladness and excitement was from
 spending time with you Alyn beforehand and
 Really there was no way on God's green earth in that season of your life where I could be with you and avoid my feelings
 Like you'd be like, what is that? Well, what's that coming from? Okay? Well, you know, it's so probing and I remember those times being with you
 feeling
 so afraid because all these feelings that I had been avoiding and working so hard to avoid I couldn't but then at the same time
 there was something inside of me that was like whoa this person actually
 really wanted to be with me and
 Wasn't trying to fix me wasn't giving me a prophetic word just to make things better
 But really wanted to be present with me and didn't need anything from me
 And so I think the excitement was even though I knew I wasn't in a
 a healthy emotional place.
 The excitement was, oh, I'm gonna actually get that
 more often, 'cause even though it was super triggering
 those times meeting with you and having to feel
 my feelings, I knew something was off.
 - Just to clarify, when you're talking about us meeting,
 we're just talking about normal everyday life.
 - Yeah.
 - Like we're just, we're having lunch,
 we're catching up, we're having a coffee.
 - Yeah, getting a cheeseburger.
 - This isn't a group.
 - Yeah, this is outside a group,
 just meeting up before group started.
 - Yeah.
 And so you were like, I know what that's like.
 It's a different experience, isn't it,
 when people are with you and curious about you?
 - Absolutely, and it's weird because
 when you've had your heart shut down
 and someone is present with you in that way,
 you can be tricked because it feels wrong.
 It really does feel wrong
 because all these things are coming up
 that you never wanna be with and never wanna see.
 But then there's this,
 also there's this other part in you that's like,
 This is everything I've wanted and everything I've needed
 that I didn't even know was there.
 - I'm hearing you talk and I'm wondering if back then
 while eating a cheeseburger go,
 oh yeah, I'm shut down and this is what is happening.
 Or are you using what you know now
 to describe what went on there?
 - No, I would never say I was shut down
 because I'm thinking of that season of my life,
 probably every single day in some way I would be crying.
 Maybe not because I was so sad,
 but from like, you know, joy or watching a movie
 or something, like every day I was crying
 and that was the way I viewed emotional health.
 Like literally my ability to cry tears of joy
 or if I'd watch a movie, be able to cry.
 I'm like, oh, I must be in touch with my feelings.
 If I can cry watching Mulan or something.
 - Yeah.
 What do you think now?
 Looking back.
 (laughing)
 - Shortest answer was I was so disassociated with myself.
 myself and actually so far for myself. And it's sad because I was spending all this energy
 trying to be healthy and the things I was using to be healthy were actually getting
 me further away from my heart and from myself.
 And it sounds like also the markers you were using to determine whether you were healthy
 or not were perhaps not the most effective markers you could have used.
 No. The thing that I was judging my health by was my mood. How good do I feel internally
 And then really, you know, judging how I've felt with people, how did I do with people?
 And now I'm learning that is a terrible way to live your life.
 You're just going to crash and burn.
 Thanks.
 Anybody else?
 I'm curious what made you say yes really after reading that invitation.
 I remember reading it and being terrified, like this sounds horrible.
 Oh, but at the same time, something was in me.
 It was like, oh, there's part of you that needs this, that wants to come alive,
 that wants to be known and wants a voice
 and you haven't given it one
 and this might be an opportunity to let it have a voice.
 And you-- - That's what helped you get over the--
 - That's what he could be. - That's what he could be.
 Get over the terrified, this is horrible, yes.
 So I was like, well, let's give this shot.
 I can do anything once and I'll have to go back, I guess.
 - I was excited about the invitation.
 It was long and very detailed,
 but it mentioned Chip Dodd's book, The Voice of the Heart.
 I've read that twice.
 The first time I read it, I hated it.
 The second time it grew me a little bit.
 So I was very curious.
 And I knew I needed work and emotions.
 I could only identify emotions by the impairment.
 - Let's talk about that.
 What does that mean?
 - If you would ask me, Matt, do you feel lonely?
 I would say no.
 But if somebody would ask him, Matt, are you apathetic?
 I would say, oh yes.
 That's the impairment of loneliness.
 So I couldn't identify loneliness,
 but I knew what apathy was.
 I've been living with that my whole life, so.
 - So seeing chips name on the invitation,
 knowing it was based around material we're familiar with,
 did that help lessen the, oh God, what are we doing there?
 - Yeah, I had it site made over with that.
 I've been around you Alyn, several times,
 and we talked about emotion,
 so there was some safety there,
 but yes, there was obviously fear,
 'cause I was like, how many guys are gonna be there?
 I didn't know, I didn't know any of the other people in the group.
 So the first night when you walk in, you don't know anybody or you might know
 them from church life, you just don't know.
 So not knowing.
 Is somebody going to be in the group that I don't like or I have issues with or.
 So that's the scary part when you walk in the door, seeing other men sitting there
 already like, Oh, dear God.
 And then you sit how close you're sitting with each other.
 Like you, you, you want to run away.
 Yeah, that comes up a lot.
 Yeah.
 One is a runaway for sure.
 Yeah, there is excitement, is fear, is curiosity, is all these things.
 And then you think you know, like somebody else has said, but then you start
 talking and things come out of your mouth that you had no idea you were feeling.
 So then you're like, that's too vulnerable for me.
 So yes, it's a constant going after emotions and there's a constant retreat.
 Constantly.
 So I'm not trying to promote this, obviously, because who would want to do that?
 Like who in the right mind, after hearing what I just said wants to come to this,
 right? Then there's fruit from it, but you don't trust the fruit.
 It's a constant battle.
 It means so yes, falling down steps is the best way for me to describe it.
 Great.
 I remember way before the invitation from the group.
 You talking to me about doing a group.
 And I remember thinking there's no way on God's greener that I would ever sit in a group of
 strange men, not strange men, but strangers and talk about my feelings.
 And then when I got the invitation, I think again, like I saw Chip Darden,
 I'd recently read Chip Dud's book and I was like, I think I really need to do this.
 So walking in that first day, I was very nervous.
 I met someone outside and I'd gone the wrong way, gone the wrong way around the house to get here.
 (laughs)
 So, and then not knowing anyone was very nerve-wracking too.
 Some of you touched on this already.
 Do you remember your first night?
 Like, do you remember what was going on for you
 when you walked in the room and sat down?
 - Yeah, I'll take this one.
 I remember even on the way,
 it was like geographical to your house.
 Like, I remember being at my house,
 feeling like a little fearful and excited.
 And then like literally in my car,
 the closer and closer I got,
 the more fear I would feel as I would get closer.
 And in my head, I'm so unaware of what that fear is.
 And so I'm trying in my head,
 trying to talk myself down.
 I'm like, everything's okay.
 You're gonna be all right.
 And then coming into group and sitting down,
 I'm doing everything in my power to stay calm,
 but my insides are literally shaking and moving,
 and I don't know why, and I can't get 'em to stop shaking.
 And I'm like, what is going on?
 This is so weird.
 - To this day, I still, the only way I can describe it
 is that it feels like being in a really hot jacuzzi
 and being exfoliated and scrubbed down,
 and emotionally.
 And I don't know why and I like the first night I remember just like it was just like this overwhelming amount of stuff in the room.
 And I was like, what is this? It's like, oh, these are emotions.
 Like these, this is the or emotions. These are everyone's emotions just out.
 And like it's fine. And like realizing like it almost, I don't know if it was painful.
 It just was like realizing, oh, I'm never even just sat with emotions like that.
 Like where it's feeling like this to me, you know, it's feeling like
 Being in this weird exfoliating part of time, you know, and so it's just interesting thinking about that
 It is odd isn't it when you it's it's odd for two reasons. It's odd having feelings out loud
 So because often we have feelings and then swiftly move away from them. So I'm mad. I'm gonna slam a door
 I'm going to storm out and I want to calm down.
 I'm lonely, but I don't know that word.
 So I'm just going to play video games or play Netflix.
 Like I can recognize this feeling
 and then I'll move away from it.
 And so it's odd to suddenly not be able to do that
 and be in a room and have these feelings,
 but it's also odd to be present
 with other man having feelings out loud in front of you.
 Like what do you do with that?
 So it is, it's a,
 the space that we have is probably unlike any other
 space in the rest of our week, would you agree? Yes.
 I remember coming and not really knowing what to expect, but
 being extremely nervous. Historically, I've not been very
 present with my emotions. I would have an emotion and realize
 it three weeks later or something like that. And I remember
 being sitting down here and just talking and not realizing like, I don't know what the
 words coming out of my mouth are just coming out.
 And then other times trying to make words come out and not being able to make any words
 come out of my mouth.
 And it was a bit confusing, a bit hard, yeah, experience, but at the same time, I was like,
 work was being done.
 And I decided to come back.
 There was this constant dance of trying to be vulnerable at the same time, trying to protect
 myself.
 And it's hard that because I think like Matt said earlier, you want the breakthrough,
 you want the freedom at the same time, you don't want to be exposed.
 Well, what's also weird is at the beginning, you don't know what the breakthrough is in
 order to want it.
 I mean, I remember so many of us in group going, why are we even doing this?
 And I guess my question is, what kept you guys coming back?
 Because you can leave at any point you want.
 And for some of us, we've been doing this for more than a year.
 What keeps you coming back?
 - For me, it is, all it took was listening to another man
 talk about his process, and it doesn't take much
 for me to relate to that.
 So all it took was one person in the group
 taking a chance and being honest and being vulnerable.
 And that seemed, that was enough for me.
 I could start identifying emotions.
 And in that, even though it was tough,
 I started seeing enough fruit, right?
 That made me more curious to come back.
 That's why I came back.
 Yeah.
 And then if you come in, you say enough,
 you're gonna have a breakthrough.
 You're gonna have a revelation.
 It's almost, you're here for you.
 So even somebody else is talking,
 I'm thinking about myself.
 I'm trying to, everything's on display.
 You're the way you shift your body, the way you talk.
 Even if you're not talking.
 - We're never short of content in group, are we?
 - No.
 - We're all always communicating,
 even when we don't think we are.
 - All it takes is one person to take that step
 of vulnerability and it's unlocked something.
 And you see, once you see that, all right,
 he had a moment, is it worth it to me?
 And for a while, it took me weeks to get there
 'cause I did not trust the process at all.
 And there still are parts of me that don't trust it.
 But in Groot, that is welcomed.
 It's okay to not trust the process.
 And just that for me was creating enough of a safe place
 that my curiosity just kept coming back.
 - Yeah, it's one of our values
 to openly distrust the process
 and to talk about what you don't trust about it.
 Again, like just on paper, that does not make any sense.
 no, and it's different from the outside world.
 - Yeah, like, hey, please tell me,
 please be present with all the stuff
 you are not enjoying about this.
 Like, how does that produce any fruit?
 And yeah, it does something, doesn't it?
 It nets your heart to other men
 who are also openly distrusting the process.
 - Yeah, for me, I couldn't be vulnerable.
 I couldn't identify feelings, but when I was told,
 you can say no, you don't have to read your story,
 and you can openly distrust and talk about it.
 I can do that.
 I can tell you how to,
 I don't trust any of you people.
 And that was welcome.
 I could do that.
 So that's where I started from.
 I started with telling everybody
 how much I don't trust you.
 And from that.
 - Yeah.
 I'm watching the man laugh here.
 Are you okay if I ask on the podcast,
 what their experience of you telling them
 you don't trust them was?
 - Sure.
 Guys, do you remember when he said,
 "You know, I don't trust any of you all."
 Like, what came up in you?
 'Cause again, in polite society,
 we don't walk into a room and say,
 "I don't trust you and I don't trust you
 "and I don't, you know, we don't do that."
 But like, what happened when he said,
 "I don't trust any of you."
 Do you remember?
 - I didn't believe him.
 - Wow, you didn't believe him.
 - I didn't believe him, yeah.
 - What did you think it was?
 - Like, oh, you might not trust those, but you trust me.
 - Okay.
 - That's funny.
 - He thinks we're friends.
 (laughing)
 - It made perfect sense to me because
 I didn't even trust myself enough.
 So I'm like, well, yeah, of course you don't trust me.
 I don't trust me, 'cause I don't know
 what's going on right now.
 Like I don't even know what's going on.
 And I don't know what I'm saying, if it's real,
 is it fake?
 Am I doing it just to stay safe?
 Like I don't know.
 - His honesty and vulnerability didn't throw you.
 - It threw me in the sense of I had to reflect on that
 be like, well, am I someone? Could I trust myself? Like I
 couldn't be really offended by that because I don't know if I'm
 being real.
 That's a great point.
 Anybody else want to comment on what keeps you coming back?
 I think because it's like you're getting to look into an
 emotional mirror, like you're getting to see yourself really
 through other people having reaction. And I think because
 someone would get brave or vulnerable or angry or whatever.
 And like, I'd be like, yeah, I get like genuinely like excited about it.
 And then I, and then you would ask the question, like, what's keeping you from
 doing that? And I would just feel like really effective, like affected by that.
 Cause I think I don't know, like, I don't know what keeps me from being
 brave or vulnerable or whatever.
 That's why I keep going back to find out.
 Yeah, there's a great answer.
 Yeah, there's something about watching other men
 have emotional reactions.
 Like, I remember being in group,
 I remember being on the other side of this,
 like sitting in group, I remember watching
 one man get really angry.
 And then another man getting, you know, really scared about it.
 And I remember, I felt like an alien who'd landed as like,
 so that's what it looks like for a man to be angry.
 And that's what, that's okay.
 And nobody was freaking out that this guy was angry.
 Like, I'd only experienced anger as rage and big and scary
 and swearing and kicking down, don't know,
 and that's something completely different.
 And it is an interesting thing where your heart comes alive
 when somebody else's heart is on display,
 whether they're in pain, whether they're in excitement
 or anger.
 For me, it was like learning to read again.
 Like, oh, tree, car, happy.
 (laughs)
 So I totally understand that.
 - Anger is the best one.
 - That's your go-to move, isn't it?
 - I like watching other men get angry.
 Our best meetings were when people were angry and displayed it.
 Those are my favorite ones.
 What did you love about?
 I don't want to go into group process right now about what do you love about
 men being angry?
 It was an emotion that I've never seen men do.
 If you ask me what emotion I see the least in men,
 it's going to be anger, especially in church settings,
 which is crazy because stereotypically men are angry men.
 But that's not the anger you're talking about, is it?
 No, it's passion.
 like in group when men were to get angry,
 you could see their passion and you should attract it to it.
 Those are my favorite meetings
 when men will actually show their real anger,
 their tone of voice would change.
 Those are the best meetings.
 And you're just waiting on somebody to do it.
 Like some meetings were a little bit dull at first
 and all it took was somebody to get angry.
 I'm like, yes, thank you for saving all of us basically.
 I'm looking at all the man and I know they're all wondering the same question.
 Why was it take other men to get angry before?
 But we're not doing groups, mate.
 Yeah, we're not doing groups.
 That's why I said it.
 I wouldn't have said that in an actual group meeting.
 I know I would have got that question.
 Thank you for sharing.
 What's keeping you from being angry right now, Matt?
 These microphones in my way climb over there and slap you.
 And this is how it works.
 The first few weeks, I just remember every time I tried to talk, I would just cry.
 And I didn't know where that was coming from or why or what was wrong with me or what was right with me or anything.
 And I really wanted to figure that out.
 I was like, I couldn't tell you why I'm crying, but tears are coming out of my eyes and I don't know what's causing them.
 And I want to know.
 And I think over time, I began to be more self-aware.
 And I realized it outside of group that I had an emotion or a feeling.
 I'd be able to identify it and realize it were before I would just be completely
 absent minded to it.
 So that was some, like some fruit I saw in my life, in my personal life,
 my professional life that kept me wanting to come back and do more.
 Great.
 Thank you.
 What surprised you the most about this process?
 I think how much I and probably still do emotionally
 regulate myself based on other people.
 Like how much I like show up or don't show up
 or have feelings in general based on everyone else.
 And I think that's super surprising
 'cause it's like, you think you don't do that.
 Like you think you're not doing that
 or you think you're being nice to people
 or you think you're being kind.
 And yet you are actually facilitating
 like you're trying to do something for someone else
 which is not something you want, like at all.
 - That's pretty surprising when you realize that's going on.
 What would you have classified that dynamic
 as before Dune Group?
 - Being a good Christian boy, probably.
 - Right.
 - Like just being like,
 this is a good Christian thing to do is to like.
 - Look how well socialized I am.
 - Yeah, and even I think too,
 I still like wasn't doing the socializing, right?
 So it was like, I'm emotionally over regulating myself
 for other people and still getting it wrong.
 And so it's like, so it's like coming into this process
 and realizing that that's happening.
 It has been a pendulum swing that I've been trying
 to work through of like, I don't want to just be
 a selfish jerk, but also I don't want to just do things
 for other people.
 - And perform.
 - And perform.
 - And still get it wrong, you know?
 - I'm most surprised at how much your mind will deceive you.
 meaning so many times in group, I'm sitting here
 and I think that I'm being vulnerable.
 I think that I'm showing up a certain way
 and all it takes is Matt, would you like feedback?
 - Sure.
 - And the feedback is totally different
 than the way that I perceive myself being.
 - Just because listeners
 will not have been in a group like this,
 describe what getting feedback is like.
 - Yes, getting feedback is usually Alyn will look at you
 and Matt, would you like feedback?
 you have a choice to make, yes or no, which your no will be honored.
 Or you say, yes.
 And then it goes around the room to each of the other men and how, whatever,
 or they want to go in and they state how they experienced you.
 But they're talking about themselves, what emotions they had while you're
 we're speaking, like when you're talking, I actually was lonely.
 even though you were trying your hardest to connect
 with lots of words, I was lonely.
 And to hear that feedback from another man,
 when you think, I'm trying my hardest to connect with you
 with lots of words, if to hear them say,
 I am lonely with you, that it hits you.
 And not in a way you think, it's not a hurtful,
 it's self-revelation like, oh my goodness,
 I did not know that.
 - Yeah, the thing that I'm doing,
 that I'm thinking is my A-game at connection,
 is actually leaving people disconnected with me.
 - Yes.
 - And what we learn in group is,
 if it's happening here,
 it's probably happening in other areas of our life.
 And that's the gift on the drive home.
 We're here to go, "Wait a minute."
 The thing about feedback that always surprises me is,
 it doesn't happen all the time,
 and it's not the goal to have consensus.
 But it is pretty unavoidable
 when you're sitting here getting feedback from six different dudes who have not
 conversed about what answer should we give Matt, right?
 They're just giving their honest feedback and it's largely the same feedback.
 That is one of the craziest things.
 Yes.
 Don't know if you've noticed.
 Yeah.
 I've noticed that.
 Yes.
 I think the most surprising thing for me in the feelings group was actually
 that I actually had feelings that I would just before group, I would just
 get on with my life and push everything down.
 And then now where we stop and process and think,
 "What am I feeling?"
 It really makes a difference.
 - Again, did you know you were pushing things down?
 Or is it only with hindsight you realized that's what you were doing?
 - I did not know that I was pushing things down.
 - So you just thought, "What about your feeling for a life?"
 - I would just joke and say, "I don't have feelings."
 - Right.
 - Until group.
 - Yeah.
 - You would stab yourself in the heart.
 Yes. And say, I don't have feelings.
 Where's this blood coming from?
 It's made in stone.
 (laughing)
 Yeah, that's a pretty big surprise.
 Like, oh, I have feelings.
 I did not know that.
 Yeah.
 I'm curious about the men who are listening
 to this episode right now.
 You're either where you were, Addison,
 I was like, no, I'm good.
 Like, are you kidding me?
 I cried at Disney movies.
 So I'm a feelings ninja.
 Absolutely.
 Or you're like, you, Alex, go, no, I don't have feelings.
 Like, feelings aren't they for women, small children?
 Like, I'm good.
 to realize, whoa, no, no, we all have these and they're somewhere.
 And they usually come out in opportune times and blow up our lives in fairly
 predictable ways if we don't have a value or a space for them.
 Yeah.
 Well, I guess this is what surprised me so far being a year in is I would have
 thought I'd be fixed by now.
 Because I promised that.
 Well, that was one of the selling features on the commitment sheet.
 Let's give me one year.
 You'll be fixed.
 You'll be a legend.
 You'll be a righteous warrior for Christ
 with noble amishes.
 Yeah, fixed, wow.
 And literally the exact opposite thing happened.
 Like absolutely the opposite thing happened.
 And I at least know with conversations with you
 where I think I'm off the rails emotionally.
 And you're just like, oh, that's great.
 You're like doing great.
 This is a normal human experience.
 And I'm like, what?
 I feel like a psychopath.
 And you're telling me I'm a normal human being.
 And so I think that was the most surprising thing of like,
 wow, there's not only did it not fix me,
 but there's actually much more going on
 than I ever imagined.
 - Well, it all depends on what our definition of fixed is.
 - Right.
 - It's like if I could live without the consequences
 of my choices or if I could have a full rich life
 without paying the cost of doing the work to get that.
 The first one's denial, the second one's addiction.
 But like, fix to be like, I have a full heart
 that is capable of experiencing a wide range of emotions
 from grief to celebration.
 And you know, Jesus said, I come and give you life
 and life that you may have it to the full.
 You know, your life is gonna be brimming with emotion.
 So it's all our definition of fix, doesn't it?
 - Right.
 - Yeah, I remember being in group thinking,
 if I do the work of feeling my feelings,
 then I'll have done it
 and I'll no longer have to feel my feelings.
 Great, when does the graduation ceremony happen?
 And I was like, oh crap, you mean I'm stuck with these things?
 And then realizing actually, you know, they're a gift.
 They can be if you, you know, they're painful,
 but they produce beautiful, beautiful gifts.
 - I think I was surprised by the amount of work required
 to for me anyway, to keep myself open and not shut off
 and not go back to just pushing those feelings away
 and staying present with myself.
 I think I thought, hey, here, I'm gonna learn all this stuff
 and I'm gonna be emotionally available and aware
 and all these things and realizing, hey,
 if I don't engage with myself, I can just shut down
 and I can power through, but that's not the abundant life
 I want to live, but it takes work even when you have the tools, you still have to use them.
 - This is somewhat a theme to what we've been talking about, but more point in question.
 What do you get out of group?
 - I think it's like the blessing and I don't know if curse is the right word, but just
 the dichotomy of I feel sad.
 Like you noticing yourself feeling sad and I can't run away from it.
 At least for me, I can't run away from it once I check in.
 Once I'm there, it's like there's no denying it.
 Like I guess I could try to like numb out or whatever,
 but I still feel like I'm at the point at least
 where I'm like, yeah, there's sadness there.
 You're either gonna feel it or you're not.
 And that awareness is, it's a great gift,
 but sometimes can feel really exhausting.
 - I don't wanna put words in your mouth,
 but it's another way of saying that,
 that you're more in touch with what you're feeling.
 - Yeah.
 - Yeah, I think so.
 It's just, I think sometimes for me,
 I think feelings can just be overwhelming.
 And so when you're in touch with yourself,
 when you are like actually genuinely like trying,
 like being vulnerable with yourself,
 like it just, it does like take that work.
 It takes that, like takes work to be present, like sometimes.
 - Oh, it takes so much work to be present.
 Yeah.
 And it's kind of funny, but not funny, ha ha.
 It's like once you've crossed the threshold into feelings work, you're now aware, I am
 now aware I am sad and therefore I'm now aware I'm moving away from my sadness.
 And crap, the old way used to be so much easier, I could just rage at my kids and then be done
 with it and it was their fault anyway.
 And oh no, no, it was just me try to escape from my feelings.
 And I remember this makes no sense, but I would talk to people and be like, why do you
 even do this group stuff?
 And I'm like, oh, it's amazing.
 I've never felt lonely in my whole life.
 And they're looking at me like, what?
 And I'm talking about that's a great thing.
 Like, oh, the gift of being aware I'm lonely,
 the gift of feeling sad, the just, ah, I'm alive.
 Like this is amazing, which hitherto,
 I wasn't aware that that could be not a good feeling
 but a full feeling, a present feeling.
 - I would say the gift for me
 because one of my biggest fears is like moving away from God
 and doing something that would like
 remove his presence from my life in some way.
 And that was my fear coming into group was like,
 oh my gosh, is this bad?
 Am I doing something wrong?
 And I think the gift in it is really the intimacy
 I've created with God and with people
 from being connected to my feelings.
 So like even you talking about loneliness,
 like really that is a gift that I've discovered
 that I can feel because I'm realizing,
 oh, if I actually feel my loneliness,
 it's actually giving people an opportunity
 to comfort me in that place.
 And more importantly, it's giving God the opportunity
 to speak the truth, which is, oh, I'm right here with you.
 Instead of me, you know, having to disassociate
 and just saying, oh, God's always with me,
 I'm never lonely, it's okay.
 And that actually kind of sounds good
 and you can get away with that.
 And just be like, yep, scripture says it,
 So I'm good, but actually to allow yourself to feel it,
 and then the truth can come,
 or then the comfort can come.
 And I think that's the gift I'm receiving.
 I wouldn't say I'm all the way there
 'cause it's still really hard to feel your feelings.
 Like, as we all know, it's so hard to stay present
 and it's just tough, but that's the gift
 I'm really receiving is the comfort my soul,
 my heart has always wanted, the deep comfort.
 I'm learning how to actually receive it.
 - I think going through life as a man,
 you think that your experiences
 and what has happened to you in the past
 has been you're the only person in the whole world
 who it's happened to.
 So sharing your story and opening up
 and then finding out that 50% of the men,
 you know, it's happened to them, the same things.
 And it's just amazing that you're not on your own.
 I feel that just knowing that you're not on your own
 is amazing.
 - Yeah, that's an incredible feeling.
 'Cause again, the devil loves to trick us
 that we're the only one.
 - Right.
 - Yeah, that's beautiful.
 Hard to put a value on that, yes.
 - For me for a while,
 I didn't know what I was getting out of your hurt.
 And he also had a turning point with my wife.
 I did something disrespectful to her and she came to me
 and told me this is how I'm experiencing you.
 And in group, we're so focused like,
 what is going on inside of me?
 So when she told me this is how I experienced you,
 the overwhelming sadness that I could actually feel,
 the anger that I myself had all these feelings come up.
 I went downstairs, curled up on the couch
 and wept for the first time in my life.
 And the feeling, actually feeling those emotions
 with this man God, my wife had no idea that was happening.
 The feeling I had weeping was very similar
 to a Holy Spirit manifestation.
 And I knew the next morning I went to my wife and I was like,
 "Hey, can you tell me how you experienced me
 "when you told me?"
 And she says, "I've never felt more heard by you."
 Wow.
 And I didn't say any, all I did was say,
 I'm so sorry, but she could tell there's something there
 that she could tell you heard me.
 And from that point on, I was like, I'm staying in group.
 (laughing)
 I remember that day, I was like,
 why am I still in group?
 I can identify feelings, I've graduated, right?
 Then I had that moment, I'm like, there's something to this.
 Not only can I identify feelings,
 but now I know how to take them to the Lord.
 And that was a game changer for me.
 - Another question I've been thinking about
 is what have you learned about yourself in Dune Group?
 Because the whole partner group is, you're there for you.
 - I think one thing I've learned is
 that if I don't intentionally focus and spend time
 sitting down and coming to group
 and processing what's going on in my day, my week,
 I a lot of times will just let it go and not focus on it.
 And so having a time set if you're in the evening or something, if I don't intent myself
 to focus on feelings, I'm not just going to do it throughout the day a lot of times.
 I won't process what's going on.
 I feel like a lot of times I can just go throughout the day and a lot of things will happen and
 emotions, feelings will build up.
 And if I sit down in journal about them, it can help me process and see what's going on,
 happened and kind of work through what's going on inside of me where before I would just let
 that boil boil boil simmer keep going and then about once a month six weeks it all overflow
 and then I put myself back together and then just let it get in the pressure cooker again
 for another six weeks.
 I've learned that I feel all the time whether you want to or not.
 It doesn't matter where I'm at, who I'm with,
 I'm feeling something.
 And I'm fairly good at identifying it most of the time,
 but yes, I know that about myself.
 - Which is crazy 'cause a year ago,
 you were the apathy king.
 - Oh yes.
 - I don't feel anything, feelings are dumb, I'm good.
 And now you're like, I'm now aware I feel all the time.
 And wouldn't you know, I'm getting pretty good
 at identifying what I am feeling.
 And I'm curious, like that's two different ways
 approaching life. What's that like?
 For me, it was freeing, actually. I've learned that so many times I
 was sit with somebody else and listen to their story and feel
 nothing, or I thought I felt nothing. And now I actually have
 compassion. I actually have empathy. I can sit with somebody
 and not say a word. And they know that I'm present with them.
 The feedback I get from people is, I know that you're listening, I
 I know that you care.
 I found out that that is more important
 than any amount of words I can muster to, you know?
 So it's freeing for me.
 It's empowering, that I don't have to talk.
 I can just be with somebody.
 - Yeah, not only do you benefit from that,
 but everybody in your community benefits from that.
 - I believe so.
 - 'Cause you have a present now.
 - No, I mean-- - You think so.
 - What you just described is like,
 man, when I'm with people, they feel that I am with them.
 and it's not up to me to give them wisdom,
 it's just up to me to be present.
 Yes.
 You've probably heard me say this before,
 and this is kind of an offshoot
 from what you were just saying.
 But when I was doing training for some of this stuff,
 they said that the number one
 determination of how effective and approach,
 whether it's psychotherapy,
 whether it's ministry, whether it's people helping,
 the number one determinator is not the skill
 of the practitioner, not the pedigree, not the experience,
 but their sense of self and presence
 that they bring to the client.
 And the second thing that's most important is
 you can't fake that, which you learn, like,
 "I'm gonna be so present, look how present I am."
 And everyone's like, "Yeah, we're totally lonely with you."
 And then you do something which we probably can't
 put our finger on, and people are like,
 "Oh my gosh, I feel so present with you.
 I feel so seen."
 And you're like, "Oh, okay, well, I wonder what that is."
 And part of it is, you know, as you get more of you,
 you've got more of you to give to other people.
 - I wanted to comment on that
 because it's kind of a catch 22 and really hard
 because like with what Matt's saying,
 I can actually be with people
 and I actually feel genuine compassion for them
 and some of the feedback I get is,
 wow, you're really with me.
 Yet it's hard too because then there's people
 you're close to that you really are present with, but they
 actually don't have the capacity to be in the emotions that
 you're giving space for. And so then it's like, Oh, this
 relationship we we thought we had, if I choose to live like
 this, this won't exist. And it stinks because it's it's like,
 Okay, I either go back to how I was,
 where everything's okay, and I'm kind of faking it,
 and you're kind of faking, we're still connected,
 but it's just a really low connection,
 or I risk it all and I show up
 with the chance that you reject me,
 or you don't actually appreciate me making space for you,
 or can't recognize it.
 And then you're left with that fear of,
 Oh my gosh, what if going back to feeling lonely?
 Oh my gosh, what if I'm gonna be all,
 I'm gonna lose this relationship and it's tough.
 - Yeah, that's real.
 AJ's talked about that, AJ's talked about,
 hey Alyn, it's great that you're on this feelings kick
 and I love it, I can see you're way more present
 with the kids and that's good for you, that's great for you.
 But she said there was a tipping point when I realized,
 I'm not sure if I want what you have
 because the process you described to getting what you have is horrible.
 But I don't know what it was like my appetite for life.
 Who knows what it was, the thing that I had eventually provoked enough
 curiosity in Asia that she was like, fine, I'll do group therapy.
 But you're right for a while.
 There was that tension because I'm coming home every week from group going, oh, my God.
 This is what I learned about me and that particular group, maybe I didn't even
 get time to speak, maybe with somebody else, but in somebody else showing up, I got something
 from them about me and I want to come home and tell AJ, and she's got no bucket to put
 it in.
 And you're right, it's like, hey, this is overwhelming.
 So it's kind of like the, you know, when you take medication that does you good, but
 it also says some possible side effects are your relationships are going to probably change.
 I think the thing I learned about myself is how angry of a person I was.
 And I spent most of my life, like anger was the one I tried to avoid the most.
 Because it just always felt terrible and it never ended well.
 All my experiences of me being angry with someone never ended well, seeing my
 parents angry with each other didn't end well because they got a divorce from
 being angry with each other.
 And so I think whether someone verbally told me anger is bad or I just picked it up, anger was not okay, being mad is not okay.
 And you know, going through this process, I'm realizing most of what I thought was anger or people being mad wasn't actually that.
 It was something, it was actually them avoiding all the feelings and it coming out in this way.
 And I think from this, just realizing about myself of, oh my gosh, I'm an angry person.
 And I'm super passionate. And actually feeling that anger is the thing that is the fuel to my life.
 It like literally is the thing that's gonna me feeling my anger is gonna be the thing that pushes
 me towards relationships, pushes me towards Jesus, pushes me toward my destiny or my dreams and all
 these things and me telling myself I can't be angry is actually keeping me from entering
 in to the fullness of those things because it's the fuel.
 There's our ad for group right there.
 Yeah, your anger is your fuel for life.
 I think something I was taught and I can't tell you where I was taught it or who I was
 taught it, but having feelings or showing emotion was unnecessary or unknowable and it
 It should be avoided.
 It's good to be happy, but not overly happy.
 You should never be hurt.
 If you're actually hurt or if you're offended, you're not living your best life.
 You should never allow yourself to be offended.
 There was something noble about that.
 I think going through this group, going through this process, I've learned, "Hey, actually
 there is a gift to all these emotions."
 The ones, I remember months ago, I was like, "I don't know what it feels like to be hurt
 because I've always shut that down.
 And I know I've been hurt, but I just can't identify that one
 because I have been trained that it is just not right
 to feel hurt or feel offended.
 And this being in here, I've learned,
 hey, it's actually the best thing you can do for yourself
 is to be present with yourself and what's going on.
 And there's a gift and there's an impairment
 and just walk those out.
 - It's funny how in Christian circles,
 It's like, oh, your hurt, we have abandoned for that.
 It's called forgiveness.
 Just forgive them.
 And look, today the hurt's gone.
 Your angry, just have peace.
 You're sad?
 Here's some Bible, and again, please,
 I'm not dissing the Bible.
 But sometimes we can use the Bible in the same way
 that we'd use Netflix to just avoid what's actually going on,
 which doesn't help us or our communities.
 Because typically, if we're avoiding what's going on,
 we do put up, put up, put up, blow up.
 and then it's not pretty for our families,
 'cause we didn't manage ourselves,
 we didn't take care of ourselves.
 - Yeah.
 - I have another question for you.
 What have you come to realize that you did
 with your feelings before you did group?
 - What feelings?
 - Ah, I see.
 I was very unaware of them.
 Like I would manifest tears,
 but I would just have no idea what was going on.
 So I wasn't putting them somewhere.
 I was just either apathetic and different
 or ignorant to them.
 - What did you do with emotional people
 in your life, like people who had feelings,
 like how did you relate to them?
 - I usually just clammed up and quit talking.
 - Really? - Yeah.
 - Yeah, I would avoid them.
 Or I roll, I would just totally judge them like,
 "Oh my God, get it correct, would you?"
 - I think part of my perspective also was people
 who have a lot of feelings and are very emotional
 were unhealthy and they were the ones
 that probably needed some help, not me who was stoic
 and didn't feel anything.
 - Yeah, I was stable.
 - I was stable, but I was stable.
 - We had mature and stable I am.
 - Yeah.
 - I would just stuff them down or eat my feelings.
 - My feelings have tasted delicious over the years.
 - Yes, yes.
 (laughing)
 - This apathy's so crunchy.
 (laughing)
 - I put all mine into the apathy box.
 I didn't care about anything.
 And people actually, a part of that,
 they would say, "Oh, man, it's so laid back."
 I was known as a laid back person.
 - Wow.
 - I am not laid back.
 I'm a very angry person.
 I love passion.
 You know, so I put all of them into apathy.
 - And we're rewarded for it.
 - Yes.
 - That might be the saddest thing I've heard tonight.
 - I feel like it's hard for me to answer
 these last couple questions.
 I think for me, it's like still ongoing.
 And I feel like I don't even equate it with feeling.
 It's just like actions.
 It was just like, I feel sadness.
 So like, oh, I'm gonna play video games.
 But I didn't know that it was just like feeling action.
 And so I think like the group has broken down like that
 kind of flow, like for sure, it slowed down that.
 - It's like a great way of putting it.
 - Yeah, that slows down that like feeling to action
 kind of highway.
 Yeah, it was just like, let's movie video game,
 TikTok or social media, like let's just,
 let's just move it on, you know?
 And now, even though there might still be like nodes
 of that or like pathways of that,
 like now I just am aware of it.
 Like I can see the overview now.
 - I love that signal interruption.
 One time I was just browsing through my pantry
 and I heard the Holy Spirit ask me,
 "Are you hungry or are you lonely?"
 I was like, "Ah!"
 I think what I did with my feelings was delegate them to other people.
 So I was constantly thinking I was feeling other people's feelings because I was so
 spiritual and I was always picking up on people's stuff.
 And that's a real thing like it is, but I would never be present with myself.
 So I remember when I started dating my wife and I literally thought she had a spirit of
 anxiety because every time I was around her, I was anxious.
 -And you thought it was her and not you.
 -And I thought it was her the whole time.
 And so me and her have reflected on this
 because we'd be driving in the car and I'd be like,
 so do you like get anxious a lot?
 And she'd be like, no.
 Like never, I'm usually never anxious.
 And I'd be like, huh, well, she clearly doesn't know.
 -She's deceived as a child.
 -She's deceived.
 but we'll take care of that later, yeah,
 we'll cast that out later.
 But literally, I would just push it to other people
 all the time.
 - Whoa.
 - All the time.
 - I'm curious what if any feedback you've had
 from people who are close to you
 about their experience of you doing group?
 - I would say I've gotten bad feedback in the sense of,
 like I said, you start realizing like,
 there's this place where you don't wanna do stuff
 for other people.
 And I still think I haven't found
 like, how do I live in this place where I want to be kind and love people really well,
 but not been to everything that I used to, if that makes sense.
 Yeah, so you're finding a new source of self-esteem and it isn't them.
 Yeah.
 And they're having feelings about that.
 Yeah, because I think too, because I definitely know when I'm learning something, I swing,
 like there's a pendulum swing.
 So I think, and also how I let this person in on what's going on in this group,
 where I'm still not sure like what's going on in this group and like not hurt
 them in the process.
 Then it goes back to that people pleasing thing or shifting for them.
 Yeah, I think it's, yeah, it has been hard.
 I'm not going to lie.
 Thanks.
 At the beginning, when I would come back from group and I'd be quite emotional.
 My wife would be like, what's the point in going?
 if you're gonna come back depressed.
 That's the look we're going for, ladies and gentlemen.
 (laughing)
 But now she can see a change in me, and even now,
 if she can tell that I'm feeling some things,
 she'll be like, "Okay, let me check in, let's check in,
 "and what are you feeling right now, so she'll do it with me."
 Okay, she's picked up the lingo.
 Yes.
 I've gotten a mixed bag of feedback.
 Some people just like, "Oh, good for you.
 "That sounds great."
 And actually I've had some good conversations
 with people in my family, actually,
 where I've found calming ground with them
 that I haven't had in years, which has been awesome.
 Because even though my family's on their own
 different journeys of health,
 there's been some overlap with this, which has been awesome.
 And it's something I didn't realize
 and I was so lonely with my family and wanted some connection.
 And then I've definitely gotten some people
 who are very concerned actually with me being in group
 and what actually is going on in group
 and how is this helpful?
 And I'm like, "Listen, I know, like,
 "I had the same questions and concerns
 "and sometimes and some days I still do,
 "but it's okay.
 "Jesus got me.
 "We're gonna be okay."
 Does that help them, you think?
 - Probably not, because I don't think anything I can say
 in 15 minutes is actually gonna suffice being in a group.
 Like you can't replace being in a group
 in the experience from group.
 But honestly, I think I really enjoyed
 these people telling me this,
 'cause at least it was communicating to me
 that they cared about me.
 And I could see that and was like, oh, okay.
 And also I could answer it honestly and share my experience.
 'cause with me, I am very angry and very passionate.
 And if I find something that I believe is true,
 I'm pretty loud about it.
 And so I'm like, oh, this is an opportunity
 to share what I've learned as well, so.
 - I haven't gotten a lot of feedback,
 oh, I'm noticing you differently.
 I'm met with a lot of curiosity anytime someone finds out
 that I'm in a feelings process group.
 And what is that?
 And what do you do?
 Is there a secret handshake and hey, how could I get into that?
 And a lot of different questions about it.
 Yeah, I don't get a lot of feedback.
 People that are really close to me are probably tired of me referencing group.
 I'm like, Hey, one thing I learned out of group is this.
 One thing I learned out of group is this.
 They're probably tired of that.
 So one of the things we were told was absolutely under no circumstances, go
 home and do group on your wife, your kids and your family.
 Never.
 How many of you don't do it?
 How many of you have broken that rule?
 I for sure.
 Yeah, it doesn't go well.
 Yeah.
 What would you say to someone who's listening to this thinking, Oh, God, all of this sounds horrible.
 But it sounds bad.
 But if you want to grenade to go off in your life, join this group.
 And I'm normally in real life, that sounds bad.
 But really, this is showing you and exposing the areas of your life that just aren't fruitful
 and aren't producing fruit. And if you really want to come fully alive, I think someone's already
 said this, but if you really want to feel fully alive and be alive, then go after the freedom of
 of your heart.
 - I would say if you want breakthrough, just do it.
 Because what have you got to lose?
 - This coming from the man.
 - Yes.
 - Who is like, if you ever start with those groups,
 there is no way to go to all of them.
 - Don't ever contact me.
 - I remember Chip Dodd having a quote about passion.
 We have enough passion to go through the pain
 of getting the results you want.
 The results you want is more important than the pain
 and passion gets you there, basically.
 For me, I think you've heard from other guys,
 it's not easy, you're gonna have pain
 in some relationships, but I'm fully convinced
 that this is the way to get to abundant life with Jesus.
 What Jesus talks about, when he says,
 "I have come to give you life and give it abundantly,"
 That verse made me angry or I just,
 I did not understand it.
 And going through this group,
 identifying my feelings,
 knowing that this is how you hand it over to Jesus,
 this is how you feel with Jesus.
 That's unlocked so many things in my life.
 It's not easy, but it's beautiful.
 - Can I ask you a question actually before we go?
 - Sure.
 - What's been your experience being in group?
 like what's going on in your heart when you're sitting in here with us?
 It feels like a dance. I don't want to over-spiritualize it, but it feels like a dance
 that the whole experience leading me in. One of you starts talking, it feels like you've
 just given the whole group of gifts and you don't know yet. And so that's my role is
 to be awkward and just interrupt you for a second and just be curious about something
 you said, some way that you looked, something that you dismissed, like, you know, it's like
 anything you do, you're throwing diamonds everywhere. And I'm, I just, Oh, wow. What do you think
 this is? You know, I pick it up, I stop, I get curious about it. I feel like I'm collecting
 jewels all night. So that's what that's what it feels like for me. It's rich and rewarding.
 Guys, thank you so much for bringing yourselves tonight, bringing your stories, bringing your
 reflections. I've said it before, I'll say again, that doing
 group with you guys is easily one of the most professionally and
 personally rewarding things I've ever done in my life. I love
 it. I've counted such a huge joy. And I love that we got to
 spend some time tonight talking a little bit about it. Thank
 you so much.
 A huge thank you to the guys for sharing on that podcast. I hope
 you found that conversation interesting. If it tickled your
 interest in something like that stay listening.
 So last week we talked about doing some coaching sessions, either with you or with me, and
 we wanted to let people know that we had been doing that and that we have opened up some
 space to do some more of those types of sessions.
 Yeah, and if you're in need of support in this season, if you're curious about patterns
 in your life that haven't seemed to shift, or if you need help navigating complexities
 of relationship in life, or you just need some spiritual direction, then coaching with
 HRI might be helpful. But we wanted to expand what we're offering from just one-on-one session.
 Yes, we're quite excited about this. Go for it.
 And we'd be willing to try some group process work too. So if you've listened to that interview
 with the man thinking, "Man, I'm curious about what that would be like." We have got
 three options that we're going to open up, just to gauge interest, to see if there's enough interest
 for you to do this. Here's the three options. Number one is a Franklin-based men's process group
 that would meet in person. So if you live in the Franklin area and you would like to do a
 in-person men's process group with moi... Not with moi, only with Alyn.
 Yeah, I shouldn't speak French.
 A Franklin-based men's process group in person with me.
 Yeah.
 That's an option one.
 Option two is an online men's process group.
 And you can join that from anywhere.
 Mm-hmm.
 Then option three is what I'm excited about, which is we are going to see if there's interest
 for us to have a coed process group.
 So both men and women online led by the two of us together.
 And we've done same sex process groups and we've done co-ed, which co-ed is an American
 expression for European listeners, if you don't know what that means, it means men and
 women.
 Yeah.
 So an online men and women's group that you and I would lead, that brings up a different
 dynamic, doesn't it?
 For sure.
 Because you've done same sex process groups.
 Yes.
 And you've done.
 And yes, and mixed gender process groups.
 To find out more information about any of those three process scripts, like what's involved,
 what the commitment would be, how it works, or to learn more about individual coaching
 options with AJ and I, head over to coaching.alynandaj.com for all the details.
 You can sign up and register your interest in one of those three groups.
 Let's go on an adventure together and try something new.
 Yeah, that'd be so exciting.
 I have a listeners question for you.
 This is a beautiful question.
 I so appreciate it.
 From James.
 Hi James.
 James writes, "Hi guys, the podcast has been so life-giving
 "for me, thank you both.
 "Our pleasure James."
 Okay.
 Context, I'm a student working toward my A-level exams
 in a few weeks.
 These determine which university I will go to.
 My question is, what does doing our best
 look like in high pressure situations?
 I'm learning to give myself grace with my time
 as spending every minute optimally
 is an unrealistic goal.
 Right.
 How do we pursue God in seasons
 when worldly definition of success
 weigh so heavily on our time?
 - That's a good question, James.
 I think God is a God of the details
 and he cares about what matters to you.
 He also cares about your energy levels
 and all the, I mean, all the things that can go out of whack
 when we're in a high pressure time
 and we don't tend to take care of ourselves very well.
 So I think, you know, in those moments
 just trying to do your best to listen to him,
 also pay attention to your body, pay attention to what your needs are in terms of rest and
 doing something different to break things up would be great.
 And then just realizing that he's a good God and he has you in the palm of his hands.
 And so wherever you end up going, whatever you end up doing with your life, for Alyn
 and I both, we've always said there's no difference between the secular and working
 in the church or working outside of the church.
 Like wherever you are, just bring the kingdom, that's the deal.
 And so I think a lot of times we can put so much pressure on ourselves,
 especially at your age, to have to know what you're going to do ultimately
 and what it all looks like.
 And I think really if we could just sort of simplify it down to, okay, he's with me.
 Yeah.
 He's leading me.
 He's not going to let me go.
 And we can, we can trust him with that.
 Then it actually makes those seasons much easier to navigate.
 I forget who said the phrase work like it depends on you,
 pray like it depends on God.
 'Cause I don't really like the meaning behind that.
 But it's in the neighborhood of what I like.
 What I like to think is,
 whatever you do, work out as if for the Lord.
 - Right.
 - Forgot which verse I is.
 - Yes, put in your effort.
 - Put in your effort, show up and do your best,
 because that's your offering that the Lord can rest on.
 - Yes.
 Whatever that looks like, you're not trying to kill yourself.
 It's not performance.
 You've got to remember it's not all up to you,
 but the parts that are up to you throw in 100%
 and find passion.
 And sometimes life isn't about passion.
 Sometimes life is just about hard work.
 And then present that as an offering to the Lord
 and He will anoint it.
 Like He can open doors that no man can shut, which is good.
 One of the things we want to come to exam time,
 I would always pray over myself.
 And I pray over my kids about the same thing.
 It's Daniel 1 17.
 Remember where it says to these four young men,
 God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning.
 So, I would anoint my head, I'd lay hands on my head and I would just say, "Lord, would
 you give me understanding of all kinds of literature and learning?"
 And I wouldn't bank on that prayer.
 I would still do the work.
 I would still do the study.
 But again, Lord, would you anoint what I have?
 And as AJ said, if it matters to you, it matters to him.
 God's really in those seasons.
 And this is not a cop out, but it is a reality.
 Every day of your life has already been written in his book.
 Yes.
 I think just as we're talking, as we're saying, "Hey, kind of work hard, play hard," kind
 of thing, I think also making sure that you do rest and have a balance in rest is really
 important as well.
 So that, you know, just want to throw that in there.
 Your body needs it.
 Your spirit needs it.
 For sure.
 Yeah.
 Thank you to our members for supporting the show this week. These good looking, intelligent and wise
 articulate members get video access to the podcast though. There's no video this week because I
 couldn't work out how to film six men in the other end of my basement. So there's no video for this
 week. But typically you get video access to the podcast priority Q&A discounts on all our products
 to help support the show and get all these benefits go to alynandaj.com/join.
 Yes, if you need the show notes again go to alynandaj.com/298
 And to learn how you can get personalized coaching from AJ and I
 or to join one of our upcoming, hopefully,
 feelings process groups go to coaching.alynandaj.com
 and we look forward to being with you next week.