- Mr. Jones. - Yes, ma'am.
 - Episode 293.
 - Of Keeping Up With The Joneses.
 - Yes. - Welcome to everybody.
 - Thank you.
 Oh, you mean them.
 Yes, welcome.
 Welcome to all of you.
 - Let's start with a week to catch up.
 - Okay, what do we do this week?
 I'm having one of those weeks where I'm like,
 my brain is not retaining what happened this week.
 - I think for a variety of reasons,
 that's true, a lot of the mile markers for our week.
 - They don't exist.
 - They're while they're all jumbled up.
 - Yeah, yeah.
 - Like today, we're recording this on a Friday
 and our kids should have been in school,
 but the school's got shut because of 60 mile an hour wind.
 - And normally we're trying to record
 on like a Wednesday or Thursday.
 - Correct, and my Thursday was a Friday this week
 because while normally doing a Friday,
 I moved to Thursday.
 - I know, I was so confused.
 - So we are a little bit confused.
 - Yes.
 - But given you can't think of what our week has been like,
 I will start.
 - Okay.
 - I got maybe one of the greatest Christmas presents
 you've ever bought.
 - I know, I've finally arrived.
 If finally arrived, do you want to tell the people what it is?
 I actually want you to tell the people because of me.
 -Okay. A PlayStation. Virtual reality headset.
 -Close. -Okay.
 -PSVR2, PlayStation Virtual Reality.
 -Okay. -They call it PSVR2 headset.
 -PSVR2. -Describe to the people
 what a PSVR2 is.
 -It looks like a helmet that you wear in the front of your face.
 -Mm-hmm.
 -And you wear the...
 Or you hold these kind of elaborate...
 What are they called?
 Promotes, joysticks, whatever they're called.
 Controllers, controllers, controllers.
 It has earphones that are part of it.
 And you basically turn put this whole thing together on your face.
 I'm sorry.
 What's that?
 I think Sony's calling.
 They want you to do an ad for them!
 And all of a sudden everything disappears and you better have a lot of room
 because otherwise you're going to fall over.
 Yeah.
 So it's a virtual reality headset.
 You've probably seen them all.
 You put it on your head.
 When you're wearing it, you look like a complete idiot to everybody on the outside.
 Oh, for sure.
 I have some great videos of you.
 You do.
 You have some wonderful videos of me and some other people
 looking interesting.
 But we can't post those videos because you're in your pajamas.
 Not allowed to.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 But for the person who's playing it, once you put the headset on,
 everything disappears and you're in a virtual environment.
 It's so freaky.
 I don't think we can explain to the viewers just how incredible it is.
 It's pretty awesome.
 Like in terms of I, well, I have like a fear of heights,
 like high heights.
 - You legitimately have vertigo.
 - I have vertigo, yes.
 But my vertigo is kind of on and off, thankfully.
 It's more off than on at the moment,
 but I do get vertigo, amazing.
 - Yeah, and the one game that we have for it,
 for the nerds out there,
 Horizon Call of the Mountain,
 is basically your set in a mountainous,
 and the bulk of the mass majority of the game
 is your climbing.
 - Your climbing things.
 And so I did fine until you said, look down.
 And then I looked down and I honestly thought I was going to vomit.
 Like I was just...
 It's like having a virtual open vision.
 Like everything disappears.
 And the only thing you can see is the environment that you're in.
 And this thing is set at such an enormous scale that when the game opens,
 you end up on this kind of balcony high up in the mountains.
 And every time, every time, even though I know what's coming, I freak out.
 I'm just like, this is the most... This is so cool.
 because you stand there and the scope, the grandeur, the scale of it is unlike anything
 experienced.
 And if you're sitting in the room watching the person...
 It looks ridiculous.
 Well, it doesn't, it doesn't.
 You can see on the screen a portion of what they're seeing.
 You can see what I'm directly looking at, but what it doesn't show us obviously...
 It's all the peripheral, yes.
 But at least I have a rough idea when I watch you doing strange movements, what it is that's
 happening.
 Oh, he's climbing something,
 'cause I can tell by looking at the screen what's happening.
 - But also while you're climbing in real life,
 you're doing the maneuvers of climbing.
 - Yes.
 - And then when you're fighting,
 you're doing the maneuvers with a bow and arrow,
 or you're throwing things.
 - Yes, but then sometimes you're doing
 what looks like a muppet dance move, like shift, shift.
 - Yeah, that's the move left, right, yeah.
 - It's a shift, so.
 - And then you have to craft things,
 and you, you know, there's a bit in the game
 where you have to stack objects.
 So you're picking up things,
 and in virtual reality,
 - Oh my gosh, that was the funniest watching you do that.
 Try and put those climbing hiker spikes together.
 That took so long and the funny part was,
 I watched Tia do it and that child did it like this.
 - Well that's also interesting.
 Tia who's shown absolutely zero interest
 in video games ever.
 - At all, yep.
 - Loves this and this all was wanting to be in it.
 - She wants to play it all the time, yeah.
 - But the sense of, it's not the sense of realism.
 It's not like I know I'm in a different place because it's computer graphics, but it's like
 being inside a Pixar movie.
 Yeah, that's pretty great.
 The graphics are pretty great.
 It's incredible.
 So if there are any other nerds out there with a Sony PSVR 2, I need game recommendations.
 I'm going to finish obviously, call them out in, but...
 Probably not.
 I keep debating whether I want to try it again, but it really makes me feel nauseous.
 And I thought, I don't know if it's just because I, the only sequence I did was a climbing
 sequence and then I was like, I'm done.
 Well, I think it takes your body.
 It takes your body some getting used to.
 I think you're giving another try.
 Right, well, I might try it again.
 But I think if it doesn't turn out well this time,
 I won't do it again.
 Because I felt kind of wanting--
 There is a kayaking one.
 After-- oh.
 --that you might like.
 OK.
 And you only move when you actually--
 Ah, that sounds great.
 But then you also said there's a Star Wars one.
 There's a Star Wars one.
 And I get to use a lightsaber.
 Did you call it a lightsaber?
 -Beth, saber?
 -Yeah, I'm gonna roll back the tape and extend to it
 where there was a bit or a lightsaber.
 A lightsaber?
 -All right, so I got virtual reality.
 You got something as well.
 Way less exciting than a VR headset.
 -I got something?
 -You launched something.
 -Oh, yes, I did.
 I started an Etsy store.
 -What happened?
 Because your cheeks flushed there.
 As soon as I said, you got something you worked out
 what I was talking about what happened.
 Oh, I got excited.
 Okay, real-time feelings update.
 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
 Real-time feelings update.
 Yes, I've started an Etsy store.
 So I've got, I don't know,
 I think I've got like 12 of my paintings posted at this point
 and I have four ready to post.
 Are all the paintings on Etsy the same ones that are on Instagram
 or I guess some of the ones that were on Instagram
 are spoken for already?
 Well, yes, some of the ones on Instagram people already bought.
 'Cause I've had people ask me what's
 Asia's website that I can go to to see her.
 Yes, I'm just posting them on Etsy at this point.
 You know what I'm going to do?
 I'm going to create a URL shortcut.
 If you would like to see AJ's paintings or Bryce or Etsy store,
 go to alynandaj.com/paintings with a plural.
 Paintings.
 Paintings.
 All right, well that's good.
 Yeah, so I'm just excited about that.
 And--
 You're just ready for the Benjamin's to just roll in?
 I don't know.
 It's super vulnerable.
 It's so vulnerable, yeah.
 So I realized like I probably had a vulnerability hangover
 for about two days afterwards, like, what am I doing?
 What am I doing?
 And then I'm just like, actually--
 - Have you posted about it?
 - I love this. - I love it.
 - Publicly?
 - That I started an Etsy store.
 Yeah, but only to the people that follow my painting account.
 - Well, now it's gonna tell all your podcast listeners.
 - There you go.
 I might post it on my actual account as well,
 like on my Instagram account, but yeah.
 - Good for you, babe.
 - Thanks.
 - Super proud of you.
 Our basement, one half of our basement is this studio.
 - Yes.
 of this basement is your studio. Pretty much. And I'll post some pictures and
 that will be in the chapter art for this chapter. So if your podcast client
 supports chapters and chapter artwork. You get to see it. I did try and peel
 some of that paint off the floor and while it came off really easily the
 first time I did it. It didn't come off that easily the second time I did it.
 Well it's a bare concrete floor. I'm not sure it matters. No, we'll cover it when we
 to eventually do something for us.
 - Or we can use that pressure washer
 that we've never used that you bought three years ago.
 - It's never been used as far as you know.
 - No, it's still in the box.
 - I actually spoke to another husband.
 - Yes.
 - Who shall remain?
 - Who shall remain.
 - Who shall remain, they must.
 - Who also bought a pressure washer.
 - Pressure washer and it's still like sealed up,
 like not even the tape has been.
 - You've got to understand there's like a pressure washing
 ceremony that you have to go through.
 You can't just be casual about it.
 - I had no idea.
 - No, you have to--
 - You know, I'm so glad you told me that, yeah.
 - Oh, speaking of things that we bought
 that make me feel like a real man,
 what else did we buy this week?
 - Oh, we bought a ladder.
 I really, well, I don't know if it's really fancy,
 but it's A-frame and it also folds out to like,
 straight frame like--
 - We bought a ladder because we have had lots of gusts
 of wind and some of our shutters got blown off
 up above that good reach.
 So I had to go up and investigate.
 - Yeah.
 - And I was in flip flops.
 - You've reaped the other one off like a manly man.
 It's just so attractive.
 - Yeah.
 I was wearing flip flops and they just like,
 perhaps you shouldn't be on an 18 foot ladder
 in flip flops.
 - Yes.
 - And I, I all day too.
 - You're like man, it'd be fun.
 - And then I thought, you know,
 wisdom is always spoken about in the feminine.
 - Yes, that's right.
 - I should listen to her.
 - That's right.
 - And so I put her shoes on.
 - And then what happened?
 - And then I went outside to fold up the ladder,
 this ladder that I've owned for maybe five minutes
 and don't know how to use and pressed the release thing.
 and the top part of the ladder went into my foot.
 Had I been wearing flip flops,
 I probably would have had to go on to the emergency room.
 - Yes, yes.
 You still have a bruise, but that's about it.
 - Yeah.
 - The only other thing that's outstanding,
 or outstanding?
 What's outstanding?
 I'm curious, I can't remember anything
 that could be outstanding.
 Let me see.
 - We went to a movie lesson.
 - We did, yeah, the Jesus Revolution movie.
 - Thoughts?
 I really liked it.
 - What did you like about it?
 - I think they portrayed hunger really well.
 Of course, I like this story,
 but there was just moments that I just,
 I always cry in baptisms, but like in real life,
 but I cried watching in the movie baptisms,
 which I thought was quite funny, but yes.
 I don't know, I really liked it.
 And I think I felt encouraged, like I was like,
 Oh God, like it feels like we're getting that hungry again
 or that desperate again.
 And I know like in the 70s,
 or one of the main characters is basically like,
 look around you, everything's falling apart,
 kind of think people are desperate.
 And I would say it can feel a lot like that now,
 which to me is just encouraging
 'cause I think God loves to answer hunger.
 So.
 - I think the thing I liked about it is,
 In my experience, when mainstream movie makers
 have tried to represent a subculture I'm a part of,
 they always miss it, they don't get it right.
 They get it enough right that the general public,
 it matches their stereotype,
 but the people who are involved in that subculture
 just roll their eyes.
 So, case in point, two different subcultures
 I've been a part of in my life,
 skateboarding, computer hacking.
 So skateboarding, you've got gleaming the cube.
 Christian Slater, arguably the big budget,
 Hollywood skateboarding movie.
 - Okay, never heard of it.
 - And so much of it is wrong.
 But it becomes a classic in the skateboarding community
 because we all laugh about it, right?
 But to the general public, like,
 oh yes, that skateboarder's in their neon shorts.
 - Yes.
 - You know, radical dude.
 But to be able to apart the culture,
 like, yeah, you know, you kind of the eye roll.
 Same with computer.
 I don't think I've ever seen a computer hacking movie.
 - But sneakers.
 - Right, sneakers got a lot right,
 but they also do lots of liberties, right?
 Love that movie though.
 - Yeah, I know.
 - But this movie, I was interested to see
 how you're gonna represent the Holy Spirit,
 how you're gonna represent Revival culture,
 how you're gonna represent,
 of course I wasn't there in the '70s.
 - The main characters even.
 - But I thought they did a really good job of that
 and I really liked it.
 I cried too.
 - Yeah, I know, you cried more than I did.
 I kept looking over, I was like, oh.
 - You did?
 - He's crying again.
 Yeah.
 - Oh.
 - You're so cute though.
 Yeah, sure. Yeah.
 Like I have a problem.
 Showing emotion.
 You don't mind crying, bubbly.
 I think you've proved that by now.
 I have a new segment of the show that we've never done before.
 What now?
 It's called Follow Up.
 You can't just start new segments of the show.
 What do you think this is?
 You've got a wonderful text yesterday.
 Oh, yes.
 Was it about my outfit?
 It was one of those texts.
 Actually, we did get some comments on your absolute fire outfit from last week.
 I got a text from somebody I know, but you know,
 I don't know if he changed his phone number or, but it came up as a number I didn't know.
 And I said this, minute 46 of your Asbury podcast, that's episode 292 for anyone who's interested,
 you referenced John the Baptist as a comment. And this person says,
 did you know that Asbury had a revival much like this year's one year before the Jesus
 movement happened out in California? The one that we just watched about in Calvary Chapel?
 Yeah. Is it coincidental/ironic or even God that the Asbury revival of 2023 also started a week
 before the release of the Jesus Revolution movie was released that was the story of the same movement?
 Yeah, that is pretty amazing. Yeah. Which after watching, we thought, "Oh wow,
 we are primed for another Jesus movement like that. Are they tied together?" Regardless,
 I liked your John the Baptist comment. So I said, "Thank you." And then you have to do that
 awkward thing of like my phone doesn't actually know who you are. Well it turns
 out none other than Mr. Josh Ramsey. Oh yes. Alumni from our school
 supernatural life but also an alumni and a graduate of Asbury where he went to
 school. No! I didn't know about that. I mean I knew he went to school somewhere I
 didn't know his Asbury. It was Asbury and so he was talking about having been
 there as a student and and praying in that very what's it called the Hall?
 - Huge auditorium praying there and encountering God.
 And he sent me, I haven't had time to watch here,
 but he sent me a one hour documentary
 about the revival in the 1970s.
 I'll put a link in the show notes
 if you would like to watch it.
 - Wow, so good.
 - Yeah, there you go.
 - Hi Josh. - Hi Josh, hi Terry.
 Hope you do well.
 - So our main topic for today.
 - Yes.
 - We are going to talk about angels.
 'Cause we looked back and we've never done that before.
 It was funny because we were, you know, we went on a date yesterday and on the way the movie theater
 we're thinking like what are we going to do our podcast on this week and we were talking and shooting the breeze and I just
 Pray his father. You know, sometimes you pray out loud as a conversation like father. What should we do our podcast on?
 And I heard as clear as day the topic angels and I was like, well, that's interesting because
 We're certainly not experts on angels or the angelic and I would have thought that we've done an episode already on
 - Andrew, what are you grinning about?
 - Well, I'm grinning.
 It's off topic.
 I'm grinning about you saying, you know, like,
 oh, yes, so I just randomly say out loud.
 I'm like the story of my life.
 The amount of stuff that you randomly say out loud
 that I think is like, oh, I guess we're doing that now
 'cause he randomly said that out loud.
 And no, it was just you randomly saying it out loud.
 - Let's take a sidebar.
 And if you're willing to share a little bit
 of your therapy journey,
 we might have already talked about this on the podcast.
 with my therapy journey, like in terms of you.
 - The key, the key, yeah.
 - Well, yes.
 So here's the thing, we're different, you and I,
 and you are an external verbal processor.
 - I am a verbal processor.
 - And I am not.
 In fact, I will think about things for ages inside
 before it ever makes it outside of my face.
 Like I wanted to for fun by false eyelashes to try them on.
 I thought about it for two years before I started saying,
 "Huh, I wonder if I wanna maybe try those."
 And it's all very, "I wonder if,"
 and I start asking people questions that were in them.
 Where you seem to process out loud,
 but it usually sounds like you're making statements
 as opposed to like, "Huh, I wonder if,"
 so remember this one time you came home with.
 You know, of course it was last year, I think we were
 still in the waiting for baby,
 which we're still in the waiting for baby scenario.
 Had another adoption dream last night though.
 - Oh great.
 - Yeah, I had to list.
 - I wanna go the mail.
 - Yeah, yeah, but we had been talking about
 we don't have a vehicle 'cause our minivan died.
 We don't have a vehicle that's big enough now,
 so we're gonna have to sort that out at some point.
 And right now, we're just driving around in the Sportage
 'cause we all fit in it.
 Although that's debatable if you talk to my children.
 So you came home with the mail.
 - Yeah, I went to the mailbox for the mail.
 - And you were like, "Hey, look, babe.
 Kia sent us a flyer."
 - I think it's important I tell this part
 because I have a fear that you're going to embellish.
 - Okay, go ahead.
 - But I pick up the mail and it's just junk mail
 and so I'm flicking through the flyers
 and there's a little postcard from the Kia dealership
 talking about a car that you've mentioned before.
 - They tell you right.
 - They tell you right.
 I'm like, "Oh, look, they have a..."
 And they don't realize that we own our car.
 I think they think we're financing our car and they're like, "You could sell your car for this."
 Yeah.
 So I'm just reading the back and I...
 Look, babe.
 And then I put it down on the side and I eat dinner.
 And somehow that translated too.
 I should do some research about what we could get for this thing and how much to tell you
 right is because apparently Alyn's open to the idea because I wouldn't come in with something
 and go, "Hey, look, babe. We could get X amount of..." because it's said on it, like,
 like you will give you this for your Kia
 'cause it's from our dealership.
 You know, and you know, I wouldn't come in and say,
 "Well, you can get this amount,"
 you know, like towards a Telluride.
 I was like, "Oh, I didn't know we were thinking about that."
 - So you do all this research and the next day
 we're driving around, or maybe two days later
 we're driving around here like,
 "So are we gonna go test drive to Telluride?"
 And I'm like, "Why would we test drive a Telluride?"
 And we're like, "Well, I thought we were gonna get
 "your interest in it."
 - Well, we're gonna look into it, yeah.
 - And you're like, "Well, where's this coming from?"
 No, like we, you know, no.
 And then there was this huge disconnect.
 Anyway, it came up in therapy, correct?
 - Oh, you came up in therapy quite a few times.
 (both laughing)
 - That is guaranteed.
 Well, it came up and I didn't know any of this was an issue.
 And then we had to have this kind of come
 to Jesus conversation about what my idol reading things
 allowed.
 It's a code book thing.
 You know, our friend, Dan Farrelly would talk about,
 I have a code book where I think out loud.
 I do my processing out loud and you have a code book that says,
 right, but like I would, I like my code book.
 We all love our code books.
 But like I'm thinking to all of us are code books are gospel.
 It would be like if I said to Abigail, hey, look, Abigail,
 there's a new restaurant that opened up that we could go in a day two.
 And this movie is at the theater and then go, oh, I was just like staying out loud
 something that I didn't ask.
 That's quite an interpretation, baby, of me reading out loud a flyer.
 Well, the other thing was it had significance
 that I left it on the side.
 Yeah.
 And I was like, I left on the side
 because I was too lazy to put it in the trash,
 but somehow me leaving it on the side was cold
 that you should read it.
 I could just put it right next to where I was like,
 "Hey, look babe."
 And then like put it down next to me and then left it there
 and I was like, "Okay."
 Like he didn't recycle it, so I guess.
 So back up.
 Yeah, yeah.
 Two angels.
 Angels.
 We're driving last night.
 So that's why I was laughing.
 'Cause you said, you know,
 - You know, I said out loud as you do, and I'm like, you do?
 Yes, you do.
 - I did.
 So side bar over.
 - Yes.
 - Praying about what we're gonna talk about,
 I heard quite clearly talk about angels,
 which I thought was funny because like,
 we have a teaching on angels that we've done, you know,
 where we talk about angels and demons
 and you know, third heaven stuff, but angels,
 I don't have a lot of experience with angels.
 And we're not--
 - I don't have a ton of experience with angels either.
 And yeah, having said that,
 I'm aware that we have considerably more experience
 with angels than I did growing up.
 - Sure.
 - So I'm at the stage of life now
 where I hear some of the stuff come out of my mouth
 as like I'm not trying to downplay our angel experience.
 I'm really not.
 I'm just trying to say in the ground scheme of things,
 we've had like a handful, five or six
 angelic experiences.
 - Sure.
 - The 20 year old version of me who's trying to work out
 if the Holy Spirit is real
 and I've been raising a breath
 and the environment is going, "FIVE FOR THINK!"
 But that's unbelievable!
 So I'm holding both of those in tension.
 - Okay, I got you. - I'm not trying to be quiet
 and I am trying to be realistic.
 - Yeah.
 - 'Cause I think that's gonna be helpful as,
 I think one of the things I'm passionate about
 is taking things that were once so mysterious.
 What are you doing now?
 - I'm just enjoying your white hair.
 I'm sorry, I'm getting really distracted.
 You're so cute.
 Go ahead.
 - I think one of the things I have a passion for
 is to make the spiritual simple, because it is.
 - Yes.
 - The kingdom belongs to children.
 - Yes.
 And we typically, as people like to make everything
 more difficult or...
 - Yeah, I spent years trying to work out
 how the prophetic and how the heavenly realms worked.
 And then I just realized actually it's really accessible,
 but nobody was a left brain to explain it to me
 because all the people I knew who are having these experiences
 were super right brain and none of their language
 made any sense to me.
 - Right.
 I have a passion for making things accessible in the kingdom
 because Jesus said, "Feed my sheep, not feed my giraffes."
 You don't need to be lofty and intellectual and super spiritual.
 You just sheep are dumb animals.
 And giraffes are vicious.
 And are they?
 I don't know.
 But I saw a video of them whacking each other with their heads.
 You know the probably people who just say things out loud.
 They just make the clarinet statements.
 When I get another therapist, I'm going to talk to them about you
 in your giraffe syndrome.
 Where do you wanna begin with?
 Where do you wanna begin with angels?
 - I don't know, but I'm gonna send you a link
 that you can post for the giraffe hitting each other.
 - Look in the show notes for a link of giraffes hitting
 each other.
 - Okay, where do you wanna start?
 Well, why don't we start by talking about
 what are angels for, why, what do they do?
 - Well, it's funny you should say that
 'cause I made a list.
 I think it's important that whenever you talk about
 extra biblical things, you don't say
 "contra-biblical things".
 Yes.
 And what I mean by that is like, obviously
 angels are biblical.
 They're littered all the way through the old
 and the New Testament.
 Yes.
 But whenever we're going to talk about our
 experiences with angels, of course, you
 want to make sure that and the reason
 they're extra biblical is, you know, some
 of our experiences are slightly outside
 some of the experiences that are in
 Scripture.
 I wouldn't argue that far as I just want
 make sure and pay attention to if it's contra-biblical, it's not God.
 Sure.
 If it's not ex-biblical, it might be.
 Right.
 So maybe it would be helpful, like you say, to talk about what angels do from a biblical perspective.
 That would be great.
 And then we're on the straight and narrow, right?
 We're on solid footing.
 One of the most common things that you see in Scripture that angels do is they worship God.
 Yeah.
 They praise God.
 You you see that in both Isaiah and in Revelation descriptions of heaven and angels giving praise and worship.
 The second thing that you often see them do, and of course the Greek word "angelos" that's
 used for angel can also mean messenger, but one of the things angels do is they are messengers,
 they bring revelation.
 Yeah.
 So we see that in Daniel and in Revelation, but I think Ezekiel, like there's a bunch
 of places where you see it, but I think the thing that stands out to me most is when Gabriel,
 the angel Gabriel comes and tells Mary that she's pregnant.
 - Yeah, I had a stumbling block.
 I had no stumbling block with that in the Bible,
 but I had a stumbling block with that in the natural.
 Like, why would God speak to me via an angel?
 Why would he just speak to me himself?
 And then I had to remember the God's God
 and he gets to do whatever he wants.
 - Yes, but do you remember that one time?
 I don't know if this is what you're thinking of,
 probably isn't, but we were doing some meetings in,
 I think upper state New York.
 And you were on the front row
 and you saw an angel come over and hand you a sticky note
 with somebody's name on it.
 - Yes.
 - And that was all the information, just their name.
 - Yeah, so I want to stop right here.
 Because that story sounds fantastical, amazing.
 - Wow, you just sat front row.
 And an angel just walked up and handed you a yellow
 post-it note.
 - Yeah.
 - Right, so yellow post-it notes are certainly
 extra-biblical, no mention of those.
 - Right, certainly.
 - But there is mention of them like reading from scrolls
 and you don't bring information,
 you don't think about Zechariah, so stay with it.
 But when I say, "Hey, I saw an angel," that sounds amazing.
 And one of the things that I loved,
 I loved one time Todd Bentley was at Toronto
 and he was teaching.
 And in the middle of his preaching,
 he got distracted and he looked over there and he said,
 "I'm so sorry guys, I just saw an angel."
 And then about like a thousand people turned their heads
 to where he was looking at.
 And I loved Todd for doing this.
 He stopped and he said, "Guys, I need to explain something
 "because if I don't, you're all gonna be thinking
 "that you're not spiritual enough
 "'cause you didn't see the angel."
 When I say, "I saw the angel,"
 I didn't see him with my natural eyes, like I see you.
 I saw him with my spiritual eyes.
 And that begs the question, alyn,
 what do your spiritual eyes look like?
 To make it simple, your spiritual eyes look like
 you imagine something without you imagining something.
 - You didn't start it.
 - Did not start it.
 - It's that level of--
 - If I was to imagine that right in front of me
 is a clown with hair on fire,
 juggling a bunch of porcupines.
 I can imagine that, but I've made that up.
 But in the way that I see it, the strength that I see it
 is how I would see in the spirit.
 - To know how we know you made that up?
 - Why's that?
 - Because nobody juggles porcupines.
 That's a really dumb idea.
 - That's not a great skilled juggler.
 If you can juggle chainsaws, you can juggle porcupines.
 - I don't think so.
 - But on that particular occasion, I remember,
 I'm sitting on the front row,
 I am not, I'm just praying about what to do in the service.
 And right enough, I see an angel in the spirit walkover
 with a yellow folded post-it note, and I unwrap it, and there's a woman's first name on it.
 Well, now, like, what do you do?
 Right.
 That's your spot to start, isn't it?
 But while I've been praying, Lord, would you show me what to do?
 And he answers my prayer by sending an angel with a name, but why if I just made it up?
 What if I read it out, and there's nobody there with that name?
 Then I'm going to look stupid.
 Is that a reason not to do it?
 Or is that a reason to explore vulnerability and humility?
 By what do you do?
 Yeah.
 towards humility because if I'm wrong I get an opportunity to humble myself and if I'm right
 then that's pretty cool and Angel came and gave me a message from heaven. So I would like to
 say I was full of faith, I really wasn't, I just in to middlety just kind of said is there's somebody
 here and I forget the woman's name. And I said the name and nobody came forward. And I remember
 just thinking stupid me trying to see angels like who do I even think I am I'm not Todd Bentley.
 And I sunk in a kind of like a funk. Do you remember that?
 I don't remember you sinking into a funk. It must not have been obvious to me.
 Well, I just kind of retreated and was just like, "Oh, which is my history, by the way,
 with the supernatural? It's trying and failing." Yeah.
 Like, I have a long history of trying and failing spectacularly.
 And then trying again.
 And I think the Lord loves that. It's called hunger. And, you know, so I tried.
 Well, the next night a lady came up to me and she said, "I was supposed to be at the meeting last
 - Well, remember somebody told us at the end of that first meeting,
 my friend, I think her name was Angie or something, was on her way here.
 - Yep.
 - And then something happened or her car broke down or something,
 and she's planning on coming tomorrow.
 And so we were like, oh, but you didn't know that until the end of the service.
 - So I thought I'd failed and clearly missed it.
 - Yeah, and then she showed up and she was like,
 "I heard you said my name on it."
 - Which was a good test of the heart, because I'm kind of grumbling and doing
 "Winging Intersection of God."
 Only to find out the next night, the word I had for her meant something for her.
 And I was like, okay.
 But anyway, yes, angels bring revelation
 in a much more spectacular testimony
 than the one I just gave.
 William Branham, who, you know,
 I know that he had problems towards the end of his life,
 kind of went off theologically.
 - Sure.
 - But undoubtedly had a spectacular healing
 in revelry ministry.
 But the way he operated was an angel came to him,
 very early on in his ministry.
 He was, I think, a Southern Baptist minister.
 - Wow.
 And an angel, and everybody told him, "No, that's the devil.
 An angel doesn't do that."
 So he goes away and he prays and he seeks the Lord for it.
 Actually, here's a little bonus for everybody.
 If at the end of this episode, we have our, what do you call it, our jingle.
 If you stay listening past the jingle, I'll post the audio of William Branham talking
 about this experience.
 But he goes away to just set aside time and really seek the Lord and the angel shows up.
 And the angel tells him, "This is how I'm going to operate in your ministry.
 You're going to take people by the hand and then you're going to feel a sensation in your
 body and that's going to be your, basically the word of knowledge is where their sickness
 is. You're going to pray and if that sensation in your body goes, they have been healed.
 Wow. And he's like, "Yeah, but what if that doesn't work?" He says, "Oh, well then what
 will happen is you'll know the secrets of the people's hearts." And these are the two
 signs I'm going to give you. And he would routinely say when he would minister, "I can't
 do anything unless the angel shows up." And then when the angel would show up, he would
 just receive revelation from the angel and minister, which is pretty cool.
 - That's really cool.
 - Okay, so there's a story from me,
 a pretty cool story from William Branham.
 Here's a funny story from Bob Jones.
 - Okay.
 - So Rick Joyner, I heard Rick Joyner tell the story.
 Rick Joyner is in his office and he's praying
 about the Sunday service, you know, what to preach.
 And then later on, he sees Bob Jones and Bob Jones says,
 "I know what your message is gonna be on Sunday."
 All right?
 I'm not teasing him.
 And Rick's like, "Oh, you do?"
 And he said, "Yep."
 And he tells him exactly, you know,
 "Chatter versus what you're gonna say."
 And Rick's like, "How did you know that?"
 He said, "Well, I was sitting in the auditorium and I saw an angel with a scroll underneath
 its arm.
 What passed me?"
 I said, "Hey, where are you going?"
 And he said, "I'm going to Rick."
 I'm going to Rick's office.
 He said, "Well, we've gone to these."
 That's his message for Sunday.
 He said, "Well, can I have a look at it?"
 And the angel unrolled the scroll and Bob saw the revelation that he was about to deliver
 to Rick that he gave on Sunday.
 So there you go.
 Angels sneaky.
 Have a lot of fun with them.
 Good.
 This is so close to revelation, but I want to make it its own category.
 are also really good at giving guidance.
 - Guidance and warning.
 - Yeah, I think about Joseph.
 You know, he had in mind to quietly divorce Mary.
 He found out she was pregnant,
 but an angel spoke to him in a dream.
 - Yes.
 - And I love that.
 I love that it was two of my favorite things,
 dreams and angels.
 - Together.
 - Beautiful.
 - It's like a Big Mac.
 - It's like a Big Mac.
 - You know, special sauce and beef paddy.
 - You are hungry, aren't you?
 - I am so hungry.
 - What about provision?
 Yeah, so there's examples in scripture of angels providing food for like Hagar and Elijah
 in Jesus after his temptation. So they can bring things.
 They can bring things. I remember again, you know, I'm telling you that my journey in the
 supernatural has been somebody like I've told the story before, but I remember being desperate to
 be able to discern spiritual beings. Like I want to hear things about people being able to hear
 or discern demons, discern spirits, feel angels.
 And I remember I was just in a season in my life where I was praying and fasting about how to be able to do this.
 And one night I wake up in the middle of the night like stone cold just walking straight up
 and right in front of me like just hovering like right about here is this perfect circle,
 just this glowing circle, just this green ellipse that's just hovering in space in front of me.
 And I'm like oh my gosh like this is amazing.
 You know, like, it's like an angel of light.
 And then I'm like, no, it's just my, it's just my MacBook charging.
 It's the ring of my MacBook next to my bed.
 That's glowing, glowing green.
 Close to your MacBook.
 That's a charges.
 And I'm like, oh, OK.
 But I've got like a list of those stories where I've just screwed up spectacularly.
 And yeah, it's an invitation to be childlike.
 Oh, I'm sure God's got plenty of stuff to get.
 It's like you watching me play VR like, oh, you're adorable.
 look how ridiculous you look.
 I remember one night when we lived with John and Carol
 so we're in Toronto and I remember praying
 and I remember having, as I was praying,
 I remember having a vision of an angel.
 Our bat, we had a, no, we didn't have a sliding door.
 We had a patio door that opened up
 and I saw outside an angel with a brown paper bag of cash
 sticking it between the door and the jam of the door.
 - Oh yeah, I remember this.
 And I just remember having such disdain,
 which is funny, right?
 I'm trying to be childlike, I'm trying to pray,
 I'm asking a lot of the provision,
 I see a vision of an angel doing that.
 And now the rub is, do I get out of bed and look?
 And the reason I don't wanna do it
 is if it's not there, I feel like an idiot.
 I don't feel like an idiot in front of anybody.
 Nobody's gonna know, but still my own sense of pride
 and not wanting to be foolish keeps me from being childlike.
 - Hmm.
 - Other hand, how cool would it be if we got out of bed?
 and went and looked and there was money.
 And so, you know, put it on my bag,
 bag pants, actually I didn't,
 just got out of bed and box for shorts,
 went to the back door, opened it,
 and there was nothing there.
 - Yeah.
 - And I remember being so bummed and so disappointed,
 and literally it's like, oh God, this could be,
 yeah, this is stupid why not even pray about it,
 I wasn't a vision I just made up.
 But two days later, we came home
 and what was between the door and the jam,
 but a paper bag filled with dollar bills.
 - Yep.
 So provision, I love it.
 And nothing angels do is good at protecting people.
 - Psalm 34 verse seven does say that the angel of the Lord
 encamps around those who fear him and delivers them.
 So that angels will come and provide protection.
 - I think the story I'm gonna tell you is true.
 I've heard it often enough that if I've got my stories mixed up,
 I'm sure you've heard this, but my auntie and uncle
 were missionaries in Rwanda.
 And when the Rwandan genocide happened,
 there was a bunch of Christians who were terrified
 and this raiding band walked straight past their hot
 where they were.
 And later, when they asked why they were not attacked,
 the people said, "Oh, we were gonna attack you
 "because of all the people around you."
 And there was nobody around them.
 And they were a bunch of believers who were praying.
 And they think it was the angel of the Lord.
 - I've heard similar stories.
 - Yeah, that's right.
 I'm almost sure that was my Aunty Jen and Uncle Pete.
 If it wasn't, I'm sure Heidi's told us in most of our,
 I've heard that story enough times.
 I'm like, I always think of that when I read that verse.
 But also Daniel in the lines then,
 where it says, you know, Daniel says,
 "Fear not my king, the Lord sent an angel
 to shut the mouth of Allah."
 - Yeah, isn't that cool?
 - Yeah, very cool.
 - Or Shadrach, Meshach, and Agendigo
 in the firing furnace.
 - Abendigo, is that a plastic toy?
 It's like a slinky for children.
 Isn't it Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?
 - Well, here's the problem.
 - Yeah.
 I've watched the veggie tails version of it one too many times.
 Do you want to stop?
 How many guys do we throw in the furnace?
 Well, there's four of them in there now.
 And what are them?
 It's real shiny.
 You have watched it.
 Just a bit.
 What about like this is kind of similar, like protecting people,
 but angels are pretty good at delivering people to like delivering people
 out of danger once they're in it.
 So they weren't protected from it.
 They get delivered when they're in it.
 So I'm thinking about angels releasing the apostles from prison.
 in Acts 5, or Peter getting released from prison in Acts 12.
 Again, God could have done that anyway,
 but he used angels to do it, which is kind of cool.
 - Very cool.
 - Strengthening and encouraging,
 you already talked about the angels bringing food to Jesus
 in the desert.
 But angels also encouraged the apostles
 once they were released from prison,
 but I was just talking about in Acts 5.
 - Yeah, it's very cool.
 - What about, you have a cool story about,
 we were just talking about this before we started recording,
 about your first ever foray into ministry.
 - Oh yeah, so the--
 - And you were encouraged.
 - I was, yeah.
 So it was my first real conference that I did
 when I, you know, being sent out from Toronto.
 And it was something that John actually told them I would come.
 - Thanks, John.
 - Yeah, before he talked to me about it,
 he was like, "Yes, AJ will come.
 "She'll do your conference."
 And so when I sort of freaked out and was like,
 "I can't do that," you know,
 and I've only ever spoken twice and I vomited both times.
 And that story is somewhere on one of the podcasts.
 But anyway, he was just like,
 "Hey, would you go and try it?"
 And if you really don't like it,
 and you don't think this is what God's culture do,
 then I won't ask you again.
 And I was like, fine.
 So it was either the first or second session,
 but I was speaking and I had the moment of like,
 like I could feel God's pleasure.
 and I was like, oh, I'm built to do this.
 - Right.
 - And at that moment, I heard like this massive flapping sound
 like wings behind my head.
 - Wait, so you're on stage speaking.
 - Yeah.
 - And you're super nervous, because you have just thrown up.
 - I've thrown up.
 - You're so nervous.
 - Yeah.
 - While you're speaking, you have this meta thought.
 - I'm in the middle of, yeah, speaking.
 And as I'm going out, it's like this thought that's going,
 as I'm still talking, oh, I am supposed to do this.
 Like, you know, and I could feel God's pleasure.
 I was like, oh, and then there was this loud flapping sound
 behind my ears.
 Like almost like there is like, I was gonna say an owl,
 but you can't hear owls when they fly.
 You know, like something big with wings.
 - Yep.
 - And to the point where I jumped and looked behind me
 and couldn't see anything.
 And so then I was just like, oh, and I just kept going.
 And at the end, there was like an eight year old kid,
 maybe it was nine, came up,
 and I thought he was coming up for a prayer.
 So I started talking to him and he's like,
 I saw the angel behind you.
 When you jumped, I saw it flap its wings.
 And I was like, oh wow.
 And it's on the tape.
 So the recording from the microphone,
 that I'm speaking into.
 You can hear the flapping on the tape.
 I love that. And you were encouraged.
 I was so encouraged.
 Kind of like a confirmation.
 Like an exclamation mark.
 Like a yes, you know.
 And I didn't, I mean, from that point on,
 I was like, this is what I will do.
 And this is what you do.
 This is what I do.
 - The last thing I've got,
 and this is an exhaustive study of what angels do,
 but the last category of stuff I've thought of
 is that they are used by God to answer prayers.
 So I think about, we're talking about Daniel earlier.
 And remember the angel that shows up
 and just says, from the moment you set your heart
 to understand I was dispatched from heaven,
 but I was held up with the Prince of Persia
 and I've come to answer your prayer.
 - Prince of Persia.
 - Yeah.
 And the one we're talking about, like the angels that delivered Peter out of prison.
 Yeah.
 I mean, the beautiful context of that in Acts 12 verse 5, it says, "So Peter was kept in
 prison, but prayer for him was being made fervently by the church to God."
 So Peter's in prison, the church is gathered, all praying for him.
 And God sends an angel.
 God sends an angel.
 Yeah.
 And I love it.
 It was one of my favorite passages to read as a kid because the angel struck Peter in the
 side.
 Like, "Hey, wake up."
 And then when Peter comes to the very house where they're all praying, they don't believe
 it can be Peter.
 Yeah.
 Because hey, he's in prison.
 Yeah.
 But yeah, also you pray for it.
 But you were just praying.
 Well, there's also a curious thing where, you know, the person who goes to the door and
 says, hey, Peter's at the door, they said, no, it must be his angel, which is interesting.
 I don't know what that means.
 Does your angel look like you?
 Why was that their response?
 We don't know.
 But it's curious that their response was, oh, it must be his angel.
 Yeah.
 I love that.
 A Bible study about angels.
 I thought it would be fun to tell some stories about our interactions with the angelic.
 Just to kind of like normalize it and set some expectation that, yeah, angels weren't just
 alive and active in biblical times.
 They're alive and active right now.
 Yes.
 Yeah.
 I was when we were talking about it earlier, I was talking about how I think that I have
 probably not valued some of the interactions that I've had because they were different from other
 interactions that I had. Oh, so you've graded them? Well, sort of, yeah, much like hearing
 God's voice and having heard him once or twice audibly, then you downgrade hearing him
 in your head, in your heart. You're still small thought.
 - Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
 - That's my imagination.
 - So I realized like when you were like,
 "Brittish here, angelic stories," and I thought,
 "I think I have,
 I don't know if I successfully have convinced myself
 that most of them haven't happened,
 but I would say I would have leaned towards that.
 And until I heard people like Todd back in the day
 or whoever saying, "Well, like when I say I saw them,
 what I mean is," and I'm like, "Oh, oh yeah, okay."
 But tell me an angel story, AJ Jones.
 Well, I think the first interaction that I remember having with an angel, I saw it like
 I can see you.
 And so it was about 50 feet tall and it was inside, it was inside the church building.
 So at TACF, I was MCing the night services for that week.
 And I think I was also speaking that week.
 I was sort of like, I don't know what I'm going to do tonight.
 You know, I was sort of sort of sweating it on the front row, still not really knowing what
 I was going to do.
 And I saw something out of like, out of my peripheral vision that looked like sparkly
 or like something was happening.
 And so I turned and when I turned, I saw this 50 foot angel, like it was like, how did you
 see a 50 foot angel when the height of the building is not 50 feet?
 Oh sure it is.
 the inside of that building? Sure. 50 feet? Oh, love. It really is.
 Okay. Bear in mind my math skills. I would have imagined that the height of TSCF is only
 25 foot. Well, I can't help you with that, love, but... You think it's 50 feet?
 It was... So this angel was as tall as... Pretty much as tall as the building.
 Okay. So, okay. I wondered if you guesstimated, like you only saw up to a shins and thought,
 "Okay, well, it must be gone." No. No.
 So you saw the full height of it. It came to the top of the screen. Okay.
 And it had this massive shield and the shield was on fire.
 And that was what the thing was that caught my eye.
 And I literally just stared at it.
 I didn't go over and talk to her or anything.
 I was just like, oh, and I just stared at it for probably 15 or 20 seconds.
 And then I was like, I closed my eyes and opened my eyes and it was gone.
 And I was like, don't think I made that up.
 That was like, my heart was racing.
 I go back into trying to focus on worship.
 And then I see something, when we sat down,
 I look over to my left and there's somebody
 that's on the front row like way over to the side
 and they're looking at me and they're like,
 "I saw it, I saw it."
 Like this, right?
 So I was like, "Oh, okay."
 So I like walk over and I thought,
 "I'm not gonna, this is my cynical stuff.
 I'm not gonna tell them what I saw."
 And they say what they saw.
 And I said, "Oh, what did you see?"
 And they said, "That massive angel with this shield
 that was on fire."
 And I was like, yep, that's what I saw.
 That's the one that you asked Bob Jones about, right?
 Yeah, I asked Bob Jones about him.
 I said, you know, because he was like, do you see angels?
 And I was like, well, it's Bob.
 And he's like, yep, that's Ira.
 I regards the well of revival at this church.
 And I was like, OK.
 I think it's funny that you casually say,
 well, the one dominoes are an angel.
 I have never seen an angel with my natural eyes.
 The most common way that I interact.
 I mean, I say common. I've got five or six experiences.
 So it's not like an everyday occurrence for me.
 But I've never seen angel with my natural eyes.
 The way I usually encounter angels is either in my dreams or in a vision.
 Yes.
 So I'll tell you one of each. OK.
 I forgot about this one.
 This is why I freaking love journaling.
 Yeah. And yours is all digital.
 Journaling writing down your prayers.
 You were you were reading me to me.
 - Sweet journaling from when you were gonna ask me
 to date you this morning.
 And I was literally thinking like,
 I would have to find the box that journals were in
 and then find the journal.
 - Just a keyword search away.
 - Yeah, amazing.
 - Yeah, I could sit down, I love that.
 That was really sweet, really powerful.
 This dream was 19 years ago.
 And again, I forgot I had this dream.
 So if you were to say, hey, you know,
 if you had an encounter with angels and dreams,
 I'd be like, no, I find this one.
 This one was amazing.
 I had this dream and I'm in a restaurant
 and there's three people in the background
 of the restaurant that I think I know, right?
 Which is strange because in the natural
 they didn't look anything like the people that I know.
 So they were familiar to me.
 And I'm going about my business
 and then I asked the Lord, Lord, who are those people?
 Like how do I know them?
 - Yes.
 - And one of the men, there was a man and two women
 and the man came over to me and he said,
 "This is wisdom," pointing out one of the women,
 This is in sight.
 I said, "And I'm protection."
 And I'm like, "Whoa, in the dream, cool,
 "like three angels."
 And suddenly it all made sense why they were with me
 and why they were watching me.
 No sooner had I said, "Whoa, three angels."
 Then I wake up.
 As soon as I wake up, I look at the clock beside my bed
 and it says, "411," which is 411.
 For non-North Americans, 411 is direct resistance.
 So it used to be in the old days,
 if you needed a phone number.
 You would just dial 411.
 Now we just Google things.
 But I remember, 'cause I've written down in my journal,
 that a 411 directory assistance,
 I should take advantage of this,
 so I asked the Lord probably the most pressing question
 of my mind, rolled over fell asleep,
 didn't remember the answer.
 Go straight back into another dream,
 and in this dream, mean you're ministering,
 and I'm telling the story of encountering the angels.
 Now, there's no record in the Bible of angels
 with those names, but there is record of angels
 coming and speaking to people in dreams.
 So just to keep this kosher, probably the most significant encounter I've had with an angel.
 Again, like, I'm going to tell a story that's going to sound fantastical.
 I can't tell you how underwhelmed I was by this experience, not just underwhelmed, but also super cynical.
 Okay.
 Right.
 But seriously, again, my journey has been one of cynicism and then acceptance and then belief and then excitement and then joy.
 - Sure.
 - You and I just come home, I forget from where
 we're watching CSI, Miami, maybe it was one of the CSI's.
 - Yes.
 - And our sofa would look diagonally
 into the corner where TV was.
 And off to the right, as I'm looking at the TV
 in my peripheral vision, I see something.
 And so I give it my full attention, I look over at it
 and I am resigned because I can see,
 and what I mean see, as if I'd imagined it,
 but I hadn't imagined it,
 I was just watching TV, manual and business.
 I see an angel and it's between our bathroom
 and our bedroom, it's between the doors,
 and the place of the doors.
 And I see that angel and I think,
 I need to go give it my attention,
 but I feel so ridiculous stopping the TV to say,
 "Hey babe, I think that's an angel."
 I just don't want to sound super spiritual,
 but I did, I'm like, on the one hand,
 I'm praying to grow in the supernatural.
 And then when the Lord presents the opportunity
 for me to grow, I'd be foolish if I'm like,
 because what stopped me from doing that is pride,
 which is ridiculous, like internal pride.
 I don't wanna look foolish.
 I don't wanna appear like super spiritual.
 And by just saying, babe, I see an angel over there.
 I wanna go see what's going over there.
 So we pause the thing and I move towards where the angel is.
 - Yes.
 - And as I move towards where the angel is,
 the angel crouches down, it has a scroll
 and it opens up the scroll and puts four discs
 on the side of the scroll
 to keep the scroll from falling back.
 And then a giant tree sprouts up.
 Well, actually I have this written down,
 so I wanna make sure that I remember it probably
 'cause this happened in February 2008.
 So what have I got?
 An angel showed up, this is from my journal,
 an angel showed up in our bathroom doorway tonight.
 So I paused the video and asked the Lord
 who he was and what he was here for.
 And as I looked, I saw the angel beck in us over.
 So Aj and I got up and went over to see what he had.
 I could see how he had a scroll, like a blueprint,
 that he unrolled on the floor,
 and then he put four heavy disks at each corner
 to start the scroll rolling back.
 So, AG9 kneeled down to get a closer look at the blueprint,
 and I could see that there was lots of money
 on the blueprint, like lots of coins.
 And as I watched, I saw him split the pile in half,
 spread half of the pile to the left-hand side,
 and immediately a tree blossomed quickly.
 With the other half of the money,
 he split that pile into four or five different piles
 on the right hand side, and as I'm pondering what I see,
 the angel pulls out like a legal pad with a pen.
 It's a feathered pen in his hand.
 And I'm not thinking much about that
 until I look up at AJ and I can see the angel beside her
 with the pad, like offering it to her as well.
 Well, I only get as far telling AJ what I see
 when she grabs the pen and signs her name.
 So I think if she's in, then I'm in,
 so we both sign the sheet.
 Do you remember any of this?
 I do remember, well, to begin with,
 I couldn't see the angel.
 And so you were like, I see an angel over there.
 Now I felt a presence, but I didn't see an angel.
 But I was like, all right, let's go.
 So then I remember asking you, what is it doing?
 You said it was laying down a blueprint.
 So we made room for it to lay down a blueprint,
 but as I was participating with you,
 I started to see what was happening.
 But to begin with, I couldn't see anything.
 - That's crazy.
 So you remember grabbing the thing and signing?
 I forgot that.
 I'm glad you write something.
 - I remember that at the end,
 but to begin with, I couldn't tell anything
 that was happening.
 And then didn't you ask Gary?
 - Well, I was so...
 I mean, it doesn't make sense.
 It juxtaposition of what I'm gonna say.
 It's clearly that's a cool encounter.
 - Yeah. - All right?
 But then I'm like, how much of that did I just make up?
 And this is the thing with a supernatural.
 Like, it sounds so spectacular.
 I'm assuming when you're listening to that,
 maybe it sounds mental to you,
 But when I would listen to people tell stories like this,
 it would sound like, oh my gosh,
 like literally you're there doing all this,
 but it's all--
 - By faith, activation.
 - All by faith that I'm seeing.
 So then I'm thinking, am I making this up?
 And I'm thinking, I have a friend who's a prophet,
 and I'm not gonna tell him anything.
 So I just asked the Lord, Lord, my friend Gary,
 he's a prophet, he sees angels.
 This is you, can you have him call me?
 So he calls me--
 - He did the next day.
 - The next day. - And he's like, hello brother.
 And I'm like, "Hello, Gary."
 And I said, "You know how this works?"
 And he said, "I do."
 I said, "Because if I tell you and ask you to confirm it,
 I'll never believe you.
 But if you tell me, then I'll believe."
 And he said, "Well, I had a dream last night.
 And in the dream, an angel dressed in brown
 showed up between your bathroom and your bedroom.
 And the brown means he was a messenger angel.
 So what did he say?"
 - Yeah.
 - And so then I told him, and I remember journaling
 with the Lord, I felt the Lord said,
 "The angel appeared in your doorway
 which is a sign of transition,
 'cause you go through doorways to leave and enter,
 and you guys have an opportunity to end one season
 and begin another.
 The angel had blueprints because blue
 is the color of Revelation.
 Revelation comes from heaven, head, and it's color blue.
 I'm giving you strategic, revelatory prints to follow.
 The four discs stop the blueprint rolling back.
 You have a window of opportunity
 in which to invest into this next season.
 Remember, the opportunity of a lifetime must be seized
 within the lifetime of the opportunity.
 The money on the blueprint represents your resources,
 your talents, if you will.
 Both you and AJ have been given a multiplicative talents,
 which you have both developed and refined,
 but there is a season coming for great fruitfulness.
 And the angel was showing you what happens next.
 There is coming a division, a partnering so to speak,
 where immediately great fruitfulness will come.
 This is the tree.
 You will set aside time and great fruit will spring up.
 Then you will turn aside and vest your talents
 to other seasons, these seasons represent ministries and other people and other ventures.
 And the angel was offering you a new level of commitment, a new journey and a new step
 up, which is why we signed it.
 Wow.
 And that's how we ended up in Nashville was on the strength of that.
 That is on the strength.
 That's how we ended up in Nashville.
 Yeah.
 That and a couple of dreams and a couple of dreams.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 So I love that.
 But again, a lot of those details would be loss if I hadn't written it down.
 So I want to encourage you right down your dreams,
 right down your experiences.
 - Yeah, and then ask the Lord what was,
 - Ask the Lord what it was about.
 - That's one of the things we did learn is,
 when you have an encounter or an angelic encounter,
 you can ask questions.
 You can ask why are you here?
 Or what am I supposed to know, things like that?
 - All right, well, let's land this plane.
 And let's talk about a couple of different takeaways.
 - Okay.
 because we're telling you these stories,
 we're talking about this,
 to wet your appetite for you to have similar encounters.
 - Yes, so our first takeaway would be
 that angels are real, even though we don't see them.
 - There's two hilarious passages in the scripture
 that talk about that.
 Remember, Balaam's donkey.
 When Balaam's a prophet, he can't see the angel.
 - Right, but the donkey had.
 - Right.
 Or a Lycia and a servant, a servant comes out
 and sees like the army all around him.
 He's just a lie, she's freaking out.
 And a lie she says, "Ah, doesn't have to worry about those
 that are with us or more than those who are against us."
 And he doesn't know what he's talking about.
 And both Balaam and Alisha's servant got the same treatment.
 Listen to this, number 22 verse 31, it says,
 "Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam,
 and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in his way.
 The angel was always there, he just didn't have eyes to see.
 And then second king, six, 17, and Alisha prayed,
 open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.
 And then the Lord opened the servant's eyes,
 and he looked and he saw the hills full of horses
 and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
 - So they're real and--
 - You might not see them.
 - And you might not see them.
 And we can say, "Hey Lord, would you open my eyes
 so that I can see?"
 - I think we should pray for our listeners right now
 for their eyes to be open.
 - Okay.
 - Do you want to do that or do you want me to do it?
 - Sure.
 - Go for it.
 I thank you that you are present with each person
 that is listening and watching this podcast.
 And Lord, I ask that as we are just stretching forth
 in child likeness and wanting to access everything
 that's available to us in the kingdom,
 Lord, that you would give us eyes to see,
 that we would see the angelic,
 we would see the things that you want us to see
 that are happening in the spirit.
 And Lord, while we're at it,
 would you give us ears to hear as well?
 Thank you, Jesus.
 - Amen.
 Number two, growing up as a conservative evangelical,
 I don't know how I ended up
 with this seared into my conscience
 because I don't think we had an expectation
 that angels would show up in order for us to fall foul of this,
 but it was drilled into me that we don't worship angels.
 - Yes, and that's true.
 - And that's good, we don't worship.
 - I mentioned twice in Revelation.
 Like we do not worship angels,
 but I don't know why that was such a prevalent thing for me.
 How did that get drilled into me?
 Like, do we even have expectations?
 - We believe in angels. - But the trouble with being so,
 so focused on that, we become less focused on other
 verses that build expectation for them to show up.
 Like Hebrews chapter one verse 14 says,
 "Or not all angels ministering spirits
 sent to serve those who will inherit salvation."
 - Yeah.
 - So on the one hand, it was drilled into me,
 don't worship angels.
 The subtext is like, don't have anything to do
 with angels, don't be interested in them,
 don't be fascinated by them, don't be crucible about them.
 - The scripture says, the scripture's gonna string angels.
 - Create some space because their ministering spirit
 sent to serve those who will inherit salvation.
 Guess who that is?
 People like me, you and our listeners.
 If we've got our faith in Jesus,
 we're gonna inherit salvation,
 and angels are sent to serve us.
 So if God has sent his angels to serve us,
 it would be good that we had an expectation,
 an outlook, a theology.
 - That allows for encounter.
 Exactly. So it's kind of like the prayer is like, "Lord, would you help us partner with your kingdom?"
 You know, it says, "Seek first this kingdom and his righteousness, and his kingdom includes angels."
 So again, I want to pray right now for you. So Father, I pray that for all of us, Lord,
 our listeners, for us, that we would have an expectation and that we would actually break the
 fear of idolatry and our reluctance to engage with them because we might be worshiping them,
 to actually have a healthy understanding of biblical respect, the biblical understanding
 of how angels fit into your kingdom and how they might want to co-labor or serve us as we are
 seeking to build your kingdom. Amen. Amen. Anything else? Well, I think the other thing that's super
 important is don't be passive. Yeah. I think for so long I lived, I would hear people like Sean
 Bowles and I'd hear like Graham Cook and Todd Bentley and others have all these amazing counters
 and I'd be like, well, that's good for you.
 - Right.
 - You guys are prophets.
 - Right.
 - But like that's not for me.
 - But actually he's no respecter person.
 - Right, and scripture was written for us
 to give us an example and a standard by which to live in
 and the scriptures are littered
 with the people of God interacting with angels.
 And so my encouragement is don't just be passive
 and see if an angel shows up.
 Actually ask God to see angels.
 Ask God to partner with his kingdom
 and sending yous to work on your behalf.
 And if our reaction to even thinking like that
 is one of hesitancy, I would encourage us to be curious
 and stop and ask like, what is the blockage there?
 I remember being super confronted by this.
 I remember being a Randy Clark conference
 and it was a ministry time.
 It was quite funny.
 It was a prayer for, it was a prayer,
 time of impartation for church leaders.
 And I was so struck by Randy's message
 that I really wanted to receive the impartation,
 but I didn't want to be deceitful by going forward
 because I wasn't a church leader.
 So I leaned over to John and said,
 "John, I really want to go forward,
 "but I'm not a church leader.
 "Could you temporarily hand over leadership
 "of the church to me so I can go forward for prayer?"
 And John was like, "Go, my son."
 So I went up, and as soon as I closed my eyes
 and I was prayed for, I saw the Lord Jesus,
 I saw myself on a stair into heaven,
 and I saw the Lord Jesus come to me,
 And he said to me, I've got two gifts for you.
 And he introduced me to two angels,
 one called in sight and one called foresight.
 And I remember snapping out because I was so indignant.
 And so I thought I was instantly deceived.
 I just thought, you know, you don't,
 why would God give me angels to bring revelation
 when I've got the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit
 can just speak to me?
 And tell, like it really freaked me out
 until I did a Bible study for a couple of days.
 And that's where that stuff came from.
 And we're like, oh, actually angels did bring revelation.
 to people. And so actually I can use insight and foresight these angels. I can receive revelation
 from them. So, you know, if you're, if you're experiencing pushback hesitance, they stop
 and pause because it might be an area of misunderstanding that God wants to help break through. It's
 an ungodly belief that's keeping you from believing the truth of Scripture, which was
 true for me. So good. So we have a listening question. Are you ready? I am ready as I'll
 Okay. Hey alyn and AJ, I see a lot of people my age struggle with mental health. I am tired
 of Christians giving the same answer, "Oh, just pray about it," or "Oh, just love them."
 Those are all great, but don't get to the root. I know the prophetic can help bring encouragement,
 but are there any other ways Christians can approach mental health and being that light
 on a hill?
 That was from Grace and one of our SSL grads.
 - Very cool, hi Grayson.
 - Good to hear from you.
 I love that question.
 As somebody who has suffered from mental illness,
 I would say that the lack of knowing what to do
 stems more from ignorance than from callousness.
 - Yeah, yeah.
 - I once heard my pastor, when I was a teenager,
 his name was Jim Clark, he was pastor of Central Baptist
 Church, and he had, I guess, a depressive episode
 and he took time out for work and when he came back.
 He preached an amazing message
 that I still remember to this day.
 And he was talking about the problem with mental health
 and mental illness is it's invisible.
 Like if somebody in your church is in a car accident
 and they break their leg, we understand that.
 We can see the cast, we can see their crutches,
 we can see the impediment to their life,
 we can see them living.
 - Know what some of their needs are gonna be.
 we can anticipate their needs.
 And actually, every one of us knows somebody
 who's broken a limb or maybe we have.
 So there's inbuilt empathy, sympathy,
 and an understanding for what's going on.
 And perhaps it takes longer for them to heal than normal.
 We can see the new cast and you have an understanding,
 but with mental illness,
 there's no cast around our brain.
 - Yeah, invisible.
 - It's totally invisible.
 So it's hard to know what caused it.
 It's hard to know what's happening.
 And it's hard to have grace for the impediments that follow
 because it's all a mystery.
 - Right, and mental illness looks different
 for different people.
 - Correct.
 - There's so many different kinds of mental illness.
 - And even in one kind of mental illness,
 there's different severities of it.
 - Sure.
 - And so if you are not well versed in mental health,
 if you've not experienced mental illness,
 It's very difficult to understand what's going on.
 And so unfortunately we end up with cliches
 where in our best efforts to kind of meet the person
 with where they're at, oh, you're depressed,
 you know, here's some comedy movies I rented for you
 and we could wash them together and just cheer up.
 - Right.
 - That, you know, is empty platitudes and doesn't help.
 And it doesn't mean that the person,
 there's no malevolence there, it's just ignorance.
 Or we put spiritual band-aids on it
 and we start giving people,
 Like I'm reading the book of Job at the moment.
 And we can say true things that are unhelpful things,
 not because they're false,
 but because what the person doesn't need right now.
 - Is that piece of information?
 - Is that piece of information.
 So I think you're touching on something
 really important, Grace.
 Are you gonna say I can see you wait and say something?
 - I was just thinking, you know, along those lines,
 I think anytime that we don't have answers for things,
 we do that awkward thing
 where we try and just over-spiritualize things.
 And so it does become just like,
 well, yeah, I'll pray for you about that.
 'Cause we just don't know what else to do.
 And it seems like there's still an enormous amount of shame
 around having mental illness
 where there wouldn't be shame again around breaking your leg
 or if somebody was like,
 hey, I have high blood pressure, we're not like shame.
 - Right. - Shame, shame.
 But it feels like there's still a real stigma around
 mental illness. And so it's almost like as Christians, that's the one thing we shouldn't have.
 Oh my gosh, I've lost count of the number of Christians that we've ministered to,
 who don't want to get the help that is available because they don't want to
 agree with a diagnosis because of the shame surrounding it. What does this say about me?
 What does this say about my faith and/or faithlessness? And I think you're absolutely right. You know,
 destigmatizing mental illness would greatly help. And one of the easiest ways to do that is to
 talk about it. Yeah. Like I remember when I was 20, my early 20s, I had a a serious depression that
 led me to being suicidal. And I remember having written my goodbye letters. And I remember I
 remember instinctively leaving my bedroom to take my life. And if I was going to go left over to
 take my life and I went right and I went upstairs to my parents' bedroom. It was late at night
 and I just knocked on the door and my parents, obviously my parents would tell me I was not okay,
 like the preceding year I was not myself. They were very worried about me. But I came in and told
 them what was going on and they proceeded to tell me their own stories with their mental health
 journey. And it was like this great family secret that so many people in my family history, of course,
 because it tends to be hereditary.
 So many people in my family history
 also had depression.
 And including my parents, and I was like,
 or depressive episodes, and I'm like,
 "What? Why nobody taught about this before?
 "I've been struggling with all of this,
 "losing my mind, literally thinking,
 "I'm to the point where I need to take drastic measures
 "because I cannot handle the weighty pressure of depression.
 "I cannot stand it anymore.
 "I'm at the point of death,
 overwhelmed with grief and agony.
 Just hearing my parents say, we know exactly what that means.
 And here, here's how we know it.
 Not none of the empty platitudes.
 And we will help you.
 Whoa, I mean, that nothing changed.
 Nothing, none of my symptoms changed, but hearing that and knowing that.
 Whoa, it was just huge at destigmatizing what was going on.
 Yeah.
 I think too, like, you want to talk about what else, what else can we do in those
 situations, I think recommend therapy, recommend getting
 professional, how much like you would if somebody said, man,
 I keep having these chest pains, we wouldn't go, oh, that's
 fine. That sounds great. It'll be fine. I'll pray for you. You
 know, I will pray for you. I absolutely will. And I do
 really can't and please go see a cardiologist because that's
 really not great. You know, and if that person ends up having to
 take medication for a while to get their heart sorted out, we're
 - We don't shame them.
 - No, we're like, yes, take it.
 And I've had conversations with people where they're like,
 well, I don't want to take X medication or do whatever
 because then it's showing that I don't have faith
 or whatever.
 And I'm like, why?
 Why couldn't you be taking it?
 And then, hey, Lord, when you heal me,
 I'll stop taking it, absolutely.
 And he would tell you.
 - I remember the same thing.
 I remember my GP helped me understand,
 hey, alyn, do you feel shame about your prescription glasses?
 I'm like, no, I don't.
 All right, your prescription glasses are there
 to help make up for a deficit as your eyes are deteriorated.
 - But every time you're in a meeting
 where they praying for healing,
 you take off your glasses
 and you believe the Lord for healing.
 And we've seen people get healed,
 like their eyes get healed, not you yet.
 - Right.
 - But in the meantime, I don't feel shame
 about wearing glasses.
 - No, right.
 And so I think that the big thing is,
 We need to get rid of this shame around mental health.
 - And I love your thing of like,
 actually let's start with trained professionals.
 - Yes, like not Susie who works out of her basement.
 You know like--
 - No, I saw this person on Instagram
 and they have some good reels.
 - Yeah, like a board certified physician
 who is an expert in mental health.
 Now I also wanna say this though,
 be people who've had bad experiences.
 But just in the same way that there are people
 who've had bad experiences with churches,
 a bad experience with therapists,
 a bad experience with counseling.
 - Or a bad experience with a dog.
 - It does, you can't write off the whole industry.
 So of course there are bad people.
 But to find a caring kind, compassionate,
 wise, experienced physician
 who is excellent with mental health.
 I mean, start there and talk about your concerns.
 Like I think that can be helpful.
 And for those of us who have got friends,
 relative family congregants, community members,
 which was being a support where you can offer that
 and say, "Hey, and help people listen to their fears
 "and but to help them get the help they need
 "is hugely helpful."
 Another thing that I love,
 and there's been a resurgence,
 resurgence indicates it's already been there.
 There's been a uptick in this,
 is something called mental health.
 - First aid.
 Thank you, I forgot what's called, mental health first aid.
 In fact, when we were a Grace and I remember that we hired
 a mental health professional to come in
 and do a training for our pastors
 called mental health first aid.
 Which again, in the same way I am not a physician,
 I'm not a doctor, but I know how to do CPR.
 I should probably-- - Do you though?
 - Well, let's demonstrate right now.
 - No, thank you.
 - But you know how we, like, you know,
 you get trained in CPR and you get trained in--
 - But wasn't your training from the office?
 (laughs)
 The office episode?
 training was not from them. But having said that, I probably need to do a refresher on my CPR training.
 But in the same way that, you know, we're trained in first aid for a situation that happens,
 being trained with mental health, first aid is tremendously helpful. I'll put Link in the show
 notes to an organization that does just that. What are you checking in?
 I'm just laughing because I now can't stop seeing that episode of the office.
 I'll put a link in the show notes to the clip that she's laughing with.
 Yeah, it is wonderful.
 It's a masterclass in television.
 I do want to leave people with a great resource.
 A person that we've had firsthand account with is a doctor named Dr.
 Grant Mullen.
 He is a physician.
 I love high achievers.
 He's not only a doctor because he's a physician, but he's also a doctor because
 he has a PhD.
 Nice.
 He is a physician in Canada who specializes in mental health, but he's also a Christian.
 And so he approaches mental health, both from a biological, a emotional and spiritual perspective.
 And he's got tons of resources.
 You go to his website.
 And I just want to speak to any of our listeners who are struggling with mental illness.
 I am so sorry you're going through that.
 I know the pain and I know the misery.
 We know the pain.
 We know the misery firsthand of going through that.
 It is incredibly isolating at times.
 It can feel very overwhelming.
 And we want to encourage you to get the help that you need.
 Yeah.
 And it doesn't mean you have weak faith.
 It doesn't mean you have weak faith at all.
 It means you're going to make a good decision so that you're still here.
 Yes. And I want to encourage you that what's happening today doesn't necessarily mean that
 how you're feeling today is going to be how you're going to be feeling for the rest of your life.
 And that's one of the things I love that I've taken away with me, that the sense of overwhelming
 I felt when I was 21, 22, and where I am today, it just miles apart.
 And that was the goodness of God, but the goodness of God manifested in treatment from
 physicians and from psychiatrists and from doctors and from pastors and from the Holy
 Spirit.
 I'll combine.
 I want to encourage you to get the help that you need.
 As Christians, may we be a well-trained, comforting, empathetic, sympathetic community
 to help people who struggle with mental illness?
 If you have any other questions, we would love to answer them or at least try.
 Go to alynandaj.com/ask.
 If you would like the show notes for today's episode,
 go to alynandaj.com/293.
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 Go to alynandaj.com/join.
 We'll see you next week.
 Have a great week.
 I'm going to go play virtual reality.