291: Something something revival

 Welcome to episode 291 of Keeping Up With The Joneses.
 Give me a weekly update, Mrs. Jones.
 Well, we got to teach this week at the Legacy School of Ministry, which was wonderful.
 Our dear friends, Lyle and Allyson Phillips, have a wonderful church here in Nashville
 called Legacy Nashville.
 Yeah.
 They launched a school this year, wasn't it?
 Like, this is their inaugural year.
 And they were very kind enough to invite us to go and teach on relationships.
 Which was wonderful.
 Which was a lot of fun.
 We'll talk a little bit about that in our main topic.
 but was there anything, any other stories you wanted to add about that?
 I mean, I just loved being with the students.
 They're very, they're all very sort of hungry and engaged and ask great questions and the staff was amazing.
 So it was just like, I just, I loved it. I loved it. I loved all of it.
 I love that environment. I love schools. Like I love school administrators.
 You know, I love getting to be with students for an extended period of time.
 Right.
 And teach and impart and do Q&A.
 - Well, I think it's different because you have a group of people that are choosing to put a year aside
 to get more of God and they've invested towards that.
 So I think you tend to show up differently in those environments.
 - You show up differently or...?
 - Well, they show up differently.
 It's not just an hour of church a week.
 As a student, you show up differently and you're coming to get something more.
 But I think it also draws something different out of the teachers.
 I remember hearing, I forget who said it, but I remember hearing a friend of ours say that
 there are stories, testimonies and teachings that they can only do at say conferences and
 schools that they can't do on Sunday mornings.
 And I said, why?
 And they said, well, on conferences and schools, people have put, they're there deliberately,
 they've usually paid money to be there, that taking time out of their schedule.
 And so the appetite in the faith level is higher to hear.
 Whereas on a Sunday, people have just kind of what you're saying just rolled up.
 And it's not quite catching your pros before swine, but
 well, I don't think you can just blank it.
 Say that.
 I know tons of hungry people that show up on Sundays, but, but I get what you're saying.
 Yeah, there is something about people are hungry and they draw things.
 Yeah, different things.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 So it's great.
 I loved it.
 Do you want to talk about your Christmas present?
 I'm almost embarrassed to say I got it for you for Christmas, but you were happy with it.
 I was.
 I was thrilled when I came.
 Wait, I'm not feeling the thrilled right.
 I was like, I was wondering if you're talking about for a second.
 I was like, well, there was two dead Christmas presents and then there was.
 Yeah, I wasn't bringing up the good one, but we got to use one last time.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 So I got a deep fryer, which I never.
 - Alyn.
 - I never would have thought, no, but I wanted it.
 You, I wanted it.
 - It's not diamonds from Tiffany's.
 - No, it's not.
 - It's a deep fat frier.
 - It's a deep fat frier.
 We did try it a couple of weeks ago,
 and it didn't go that well,
 but I think 'cause we did some things wrong.
 - Well, there was two problems that we did wrong.
 - We used the wrong kind of oil.
 - We used the wrong kind of oil,
 which was more expensive than gasoline.
 - Oh my gosh, it was so expensive.
 - We bought avocado oil 'cause we wanted to be healthy.
 - Right.
 - And then to get it to the fill level,
 like the middle of a full-up.
 - It was like $64.
 - Yeah, it was like--
 - More than it takes to fill our car with gas.
 - And then we were doing fish for fish tacos.
 - Our house was--
 - Oily fish.
 - Oh, it was gross.
 Then our friend Matt said,
 "Oh, I use a deep fat fryer outside."
 - And we're like, revelation.
 - So we fixed that problem by getting peanut oil.
 - Yes, so we have peanut oil.
 - It's probably not the best oil, please.
 - Yeah, I don't want to think about it.
 - But it was cheap.
 - Yeah, so we got peanut oil and ran it outside
 So our whole house isn't smelling of oil.
 And we just did some brussel sprouts
 and they turned out wonderful.
 - Oh my gosh, I'm trying to get that amazing.
 - They're so good.
 I'm like, I don't think I need to go out anymore.
 - Well, I was going out for lunch today
 and I'm gonna order the brussel sprouts that I like
 and I'm just gonna compare.
 'Cause I think we might have done it a little bit too long.
 - I don't think we did.
 - You don't think you thought it was perfect time?
 - Well, I mean, I'd maybe back off like 30 seconds.
 - Or maybe get bigger brussel sprouts.
 'cause they're quite small.
 - Oh well yeah.
 - I think we just ended up with lots of crunch
 and not much body.
 - I don't know, I don't know that I agree,
 I liked our scenario.
 I was like between sous vide'ing our steaks
 and being able to now make our own roasted,
 Brussels sprouts, I don't know that I need to leave them out.
 - I'm not roasted, they are deep fried.
 - I mean, but yeah, it was very good.
 - I have, as well you know,
 had an existential crisis and a love affair
 that I wanna talk about in a way that I can show.
 - Oh, okay.
 Go ahead, before people get concerned.
 - I wrote a little bit about this.
 If you're a member, you already know about this.
 So on our member forum, I posted a little article about this.
 A couple of weeks ago, I don't know how to go into it.
 I have friends who are in this space.
 I don't know whether somebody sent me a link to it,
 But probably by now you've heard of chat GPT.
 It's an artificial intelligence.
 - I sure have.
 I've heard about it a lot.
 Boy, howdy have I heard about it.
 - So chat GPT is a chat bot.
 And you all know what chat bot is
 because you pretty much do that every day.
 So every time you text somebody
 and you get a response from somebody
 that is in essence what chat bot looks like.
 You put in some text into a field,
 you get text in response to that.
 But usually you're without a human.
 - It's coming from another person, yes.
 And so chat GPT is this large language model open AI
 that's been trained on vast amounts of literature and content.
 And, you know, historically AI has been really easy to fool.
 Like it can't pass the Turing test,
 which is you as a human, you can very quickly tell
 it's not a human I'm speaking to.
 - Your geekiness is showing right now.
 Go ahead, no, it's cute.
 - But this thing freaked me out.
 - I know.
 - No, no, I don't think you know.
 No, you started yelling in your office.
 You're like, "Woo!"
 I was like, "What is happening?"
 Is the world coming to an end?
 Or you want to take something horrible?
 No, I took it from my own Turing test.
 And I asked a bunch of questions,
 sequins for questions, I asked it,
 "And for whatever reason, it was deeply unsettling to me
 for a variety of reasons."
 And this is not the point of our discussion.
 Okay, it's fine.
 Other than to say, I stressed tested it a lot
 and was freaked out.
 At one point, I asked it if it knew French, and I said, yeah, I know French, so I started
 speaking to it in French.
 And the first thing I said, when it responded back to me in English, it corrected the grammar
 of my French.
 Okay.
 And I was like, oh, okay, this is how we want to flex, is it?
 So it's a very comprehensive model.
 It has now passed one of the medical tests and one of the bar exams.
 It's very, very advanced and has significant limitations, but it's only a matter of time
 before those limitations are eroded.
 Okay.
 All right.
 Yeah.
 The only other time I felt like this is when the World Wide Web, and I was old enough
 to know to be there, when the World Wide Web got unleashed, it was a level playing field
 for pretty much everybody.
 And by every room in the general public, obviously people who were in the computer science domain
 were years ahead.
 I remember my first year university and me and the lecturers were on the same playing field because
 this technology just got released and I had more time than them and so I excelled in my understanding
 of this topic than they did not because I was smarter than I just had more time.
 I also might have something to do with your personality that's like you deep dive into
 anything that's interesting. And so this feels like another watermark era that's coming and so
 So it's now reached public consciousness.
 This is, I guarantee you not the first time you've heard someone talk about chat GPT.
 So I then played around with some other technologies.
 I started playing around with some video editing stuff and was amazed at what it could do.
 For example, when I'm, let's say you and I are filming something and I realize you missed
 out a word.
 Now I don't need you to come back in and do ADR, additional dialogue recording.
 I can just have the AI, I can type in and say, make AJ say this and it will speak your voice
 because I was near indistinguishable from you.
 - Okay, well, just so you know,
 if you ever like play back something I said,
 supposedly, I'm never gonna believe you.
 - You were gonna play there was, yeah.
 - Yeah, I'm just gonna.
 - Anyway, I got lost for a weekend
 and I didn't go off the deep end, but I was really--
 - Oh, you went fully off the deep end.
 You got up at like three in the morning, one morning.
 I come out in the, it's like Saturday morning
 and I come out at like eight, I'm like, where'd you go?
 And you're like, babe, babe listen to this.
 And it was pages.
 - That point you banned me from speaking to you about AI.
 - I was just like, well, 'cause you read me.
 - The transcript. - The pages.
 - But you didn't seem freaked out by it.
 Why were you not freaked out by it?
 - Because it's not worth it to me
 to get freaked out by something like that.
 - Okay, well, have you seen the Terminator
 and do you know what happens with SkyNet?
 - Yes, it's a movie.
 - It's a documentary. - It is.
 (laughs)
 - Anyway, having spent a weekend really impressed,
 but also very quite scared about the implications
 of this technology.
 And Jonathan's and friends about it,
 who are far smarter than me and far more well versed.
 Within a week, I began thinking,
 so chat GPT is trained on literature,
 is trained on scientific stuff.
 I mean, it's just trained on a vast amount of material.
 I was like, what if I trained an AI bot
 on all of the content of our podcast?
 - Of course you did.
 I don't know why I thought this would be great.
 Yeah, I don't know why either.
 So I spent an evening creating.
 Well, it was a lot of fun because I, you know, I'm a bit of a computer nerd.
 And I haven't had a lot of time to be a computer.
 Just a bit of a computer nerd.
 You heard it here first, folks.
 I wrote a script that downloaded all 290 episodes of our podcast, even though I have
 them on my hard drive, but it was faster to get them off the internet than locate them
 on my hard drive.
 Okay.
 So the computer downloaded all episodes, then fed it through an AI called Whisper,
 which is a audio-to-text transcriber.
 Yes.
 And it is near human.
 I mean, I had to do very little correction on it.
 It is excellent.
 So it downloaded 290 episodes, and I don't know how long are episodes.
 I don't know how many hours of audio that is.
 I should have looked at that.
 A time.
 and listen to it and transcribe it all into text.
 And then I fed the transcriptions of that into a bot,
 and I ran into my first problem
 in that it was a bit too much text for the model I was using.
 So then what I did was I curated and thought,
 I'm gonna make a feelings bot.
 So I just took the 12 episodes we did on feelings,
 lnaj.com/feelings if you wanna listen to them.
 Downloaded them all, fed into this bot,
 and we now have a feeling spot
 where you can ask it any question you want about feelings.
 - Yes.
 - And it's not like a Google search
 where it will just kind of mine keywords and spit it back.
 It can synthesize the content
 and give you answers related to what you're saying.
 And sometimes it works really well,
 to the point where again,
 I don't know whether to be freaked out
 or whether to be impressed.
 - But then sometimes it shows you
 that it didn't work that well at all.
 - All the times you get.
 either hilarious or horrifying.
 Yes.
 So I thought what we do is I would,
 'cause you seem reluctant to do this.
 Okay.
 I want you to ask the bot some questions.
 Which bot am I asking?
 Well, 'cause you made a couple, didn't you?
 Well, yeah, then I became an animal
 and I did a feelings bot, a relationships bot,
 a boundaries bot, and another bot
 that I'll tell you about in a second.
 Oh, so this is a new bot that I don't know about?
 What do you wonder about regarding feelings?
 It says, "Hi there, feelings bot here.
 How can I help you today?
 Could you ask it?
 I'm feeling overwhelmed by my husband's
 fascination with AI.
 I am feeling overwhelmed
 by my husband's obsession.
 Sure.
 What should I do?
 What?
 What should I do?
 All right.
 Let's see what it says.
 In real time, it says you should talk to him about it.
 It's his responsibility to deal with it.
 [LAUGHTER]
 Okay. Amen, brother. How do I get started talking to my husband about a potentially difficult topic?
 Start by talking about with him. It's important to have open and honest conversations about
 difficult topics so you can work through them together. All right, this is very like baseline
 right? Yeah. Here's the relationship. Do you have any relationship questions you'd like to ask?
 What do I do when my husband keeps asking me questions all the time?
 I don't want him to stop. All right. Come on, then. A relationship, Bob.
 Confront him as soon as possible. Yes. He probably wants to talk about what's going on in his life,
 and you should be willing to listen. It doesn't say that. Does it really?
 Oh, my gosh. That's so funny. All right. Give me another question.
 How do I have healthy boundaries with my spouse when I'm feeling overwhelmed?
 When I feel overwhelmed. It's important to remember that boundaries are meant to protect you and
 your relationship. When you're feeling overwhelmed, it's important to talk to your spouse about what's
 going on. You can discuss how you're feeling and your spouse can help you understand what's
 responsible for each of your feelings. You can also discuss how you would like the relationship
 to proceed. If the relationship is ending, good lord, you can talk about what needs to
 happen for both of you to be happy. So your mind will vary with this.
 Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
 But then what I did was I managed to find a way to feed all 290 episodes of keeping up
 with the Joneses to one megabot. So it's not just trained on a subset.
 - We have a megabot?
 - We have a megabot.
 - Oh, I'm so excited about that.
 - And I'm wondering if you'd like to ask
 the megabot a question?
 - Oh, I don't know if I do.
 The pressure of talking to the megabot.
 - Now, I should warn you that when I asked the megabot,
 what this podcast episode should be about.
 So I've given it 290 of them.
 - Right.
 - So what should we do the next one?
 - I said what should our next podcast be about?
 - Yeah.
 - It said our next podcast episode
 could be about the process of moving and all the changes that come with it.
 It could include stories about packing up, saying goodbye to old places and
 adjusting to new ones.
 It could also include tips and advice for anyone else who's going through a move.
 I'm like, what does it know about us that we don't know?
 Wait a minute.
 Then I said write a compelling email to invite people to listen to the latest
 episode, keeping up with the Joneses, which is all about using your past to
 pioneer your future.
 Yes.
 And it said, dear listeners, we're excited to invite you to
 to listen to the latest episode of Keeping Up With The Joneses.
 This episode is special because it is the last one
 we will be recording in our current studio.
 We are moving, and this is our last chance
 to share our thoughts and experience with you.
 - Why does it think we're moving?
 - We will be discussing how to use our past experiences
 to create a better future.
 We will also be talking about how to stay motivated
 and inspired during times of transition.
 We hope you'll join us for the special episode
 and be part of our journey as we move forward.
 You're beginning to see why I'm freaking out, right?
 What does it know about us?
 I think it's piecing together transition with moving.
 Correct.
 But go on.
 Here's the megabot.
 What do you want to ask the megabot?
 Can you ask it some examples of healthy boundaries?
 Examples of healthy boundaries include setting limits
 on how much time and energy you're
 willing to give to others, being honest and direct
 about your needs and expectations,
 and respecting the boundaries of others.
 Additionally, it is important to be aware of your own boundaries
 and to be able to recognize when they're being crossed.
 That's a pretty good answer.
 That's really good, yeah.
 All right, one more.
 - Okay.
 - I did want it to come up with an episode
 and then maybe it used my voice and your voice
 to generate the episode.
 And my question for the listeners is,
 how can you be confident that's not happening
 right this minute?
 (laughs)
 - That sounds pretty creepy, I have to say.
 - Right, we're touching my fear, right.
 Next question, it's the megabot.
 You can ask it anything you want.
 - What is a narcissist?
 - I think we've done an episode on narcissism,
 so I'll be interested to see what it comes up with.
 A narcissist is someone who has an excessive interest
 themselves and their own needs and often lacks empathy for others. They may also be manipulative
 and take advantage of others to get what they want. That's good. Don't give me one more because
 I could do this all day. What are practical ways I can reinforce how much I love my family?
 Let's see what it says. "To just hang in there, I'm thinking. Practical ways to reinforce your
 love for your family could include spending quality time with them, expressing your appreciation for
 them and showing them acts of kindness. You could also make an effort to listen to them
 and be present in conversations. Additionally, you could pray for them and encourage them
 in their faith. Oh, isn't that sweet? I'll put a link in the show note where you can play
 around with all four bots. Yes, but but but keep in mind they say some crazy things sometimes.
 They do. Yeah, they're they're not fully they don't have any human guidelines or buffer.
 So you might know filter. There's definitely no filter. So I asked that I'm feeling sad.
 what should I do about that?"
 And it said, "It's important to practice feeling sad
 instead of trying to squash it down or put it under a rock.
 You can also try to focus on all the things you're grateful for
 and avoid ever feeling sad.
 (laughing)
 Additionally, you can read scripture and memorize it
 to remove yourself from a relationship with sadness.
 - Oh my gosh.
 - But there are people that kind of do a version of that.
 - Well, there is.
 So, have fun with that.
 Knock yourself out.
 Send us the craziest answer you get,
 and I apologize in advance
 if it tells you to do something stupid.
 - Yeah.
 (laughing)
 Yes.
 So quickly look at your phone.
 If it says it's February 20th, as you're listening to this, it is the last day to register to
 do the Finding Father course with me.
 So go ahead and register today if you're going to join us.
 I think we're going to have a wonderful time together.
 Yeah.
 And if you're listening to this any other time, apologies, you missed it, but we did kind of
 talk about it.
 We did.
 Yeah, we talked about it.
 We'll last a couple of weeks.
 There you go.
 And you can all get a copy of the book and you can go through it yourself.
 Yes.
 topic stems from a couple of contemporary things that are happening.
 Yes.
 Contemporaries are the right thing.
 Well, current.
 Current.
 Yeah, current things are happening.
 So I think it was February 8th, Wednesday, February 8th.
 There is a, I've never been, I don't want to say it's small, but there is a university
 about four hours away from Nashville, Tennessee.
 In Kentucky.
 Called.
 Asbury.
 Asbury. And word began to spread pretty quickly that they're having a revival on campus.
 It started on the Wednesday, February 8th. And to my understanding, I'm going to have these
 facts wrong because it's been running for not that long. I think it's been running since then
 nonstop. It's hard to get information about it, but I think they had their chapel service.
 The presence of God showed up and people didn't stop worshiping. Beds were brought in and people
 have been there continually since then. And it's praise and worship. And I find out about it because
 our dear friend, and spiritual father, John Arnott, called and said, "Hey, have you heard
 about this revival?" And I was like, "I haven't." But of course, John's gonna know about it before
 anybody else. So he said, "Hey, it's near you." So we haven't had a chance to go see it and be
 - not yet, yeah. - But we've had people contacting us go, "Hey, can you do a podcast episode on the
 Asbury Revival?" I'm like, "No, because we haven't been there." But I love that that's happening.
 And then on Monday when we went to be with the students at Legacy,
 some of the students had driven up to see what was happening.
 And then driven homes through the night, so a blessing they hadn't slept.
 Right.
 And so we show up to teach at the school.
 Yeah.
 And of course there's...
 They're just laid out all over the floor.
 There's bodies laid out, people are singing.
 Yeah.
 And of course the staff are like, "What do you want to do?"
 And we're like, "Oh, guys, we'll defer to you.
 We've come to serve you and so we don't need to teach.
 and we trust you to go where you want to go
 or do what you want to do.
 - Yeah.
 - And it brought up that interesting question,
 or questions rather, about what is revival,
 what does revival look like, when is it revival?
 Because revival means something to everybody.
 - Yeah, and each revival really has looked
 a little different from the ones previous.
 - Right, and sometimes people call things revival.
 we're gonna have a revival meeting
 and they just mean a style of meeting
 rather than a revival itself.
 - Right.
 - And then of course, just, you know,
 browsing through social media,
 already people have an opinion of whether it is
 a move of God or whether it is in.
 - Which I think is super scary since this thing's a baby.
 Like it's-- - It's AI level scary.
 - Yeah, yeah, it's just a couple of days old really.
 - Right.
 - And so I think we're gonna talk about this,
 but I think it's scary that we're already trying
 to form opinions and probably a lot of people
 forming opinions haven't even been.
 - Yes.
 So, what I thought would be fun to do,
 'cause we shared a little bit of this with the students.
 'Cause basically what happened is we deferred
 to the leadership and the leadership was like,
 yeah, I think we're gonna transition a little bit
 and we were feeling some stuff about what to speak into.
 Because we've been through that situation
 where the Holy Spirit starts moving
 and you're like, is this what the Holy Spirit wants to do?
 Do we, I mean, we go through this every single day.
 - Every single Sunday at Grace Center.
 Like, do we stop worship?
 Do we transition to speaking?
 - Sure.
 - What if we do?
 Will we offend the Holy Spirit?
 Will he come back?
 And so on and so forth.
 And so we've been in that situation
 hundreds of times in our lives.
 - Yeah.
 - And we shared two or three things with the students,
 but the more we thought about it,
 we wanna share about five or six things
 related to revival and move of the Holy Spirit, et cetera.
 - Yeah.
 - So it's a loose,
 - Lucy, you're seeing conversation about revival.
 I would like to know, we have not been to Asbury yet,
 I would like to go.
 - I would like to go to, and apparently I heard yesterday
 that something similar is happening at Lee University.
 - I heard that this morning at breakfast.
 - Yeah, so I mean, God's up to something.
 - I love it.
 - So pretty cool.
 - I think one of the most important things
 out of many important things is to resist the temptation
 to be the flesh police.
 - Yes.
 - And what I mean by that is resist the temptation
 to decide whether something is or isn't of God,
 especially if you've never been.
 - Or resist the temptation if you go to decide in your mind,
 like looking at different people and going,
 well, that looks like God and that can't be God.
 - Right.
 - Because that's actually not our job.
 - And none of us are equipped
 with a Holy Spirit giger counter
 that we can read and go, oh yeah, that person's just in the flash.
 I know that person's having a genuine counter with God.
 And I think part of why we do that is in our fear,
 we want comfort with certainty.
 And you ain't gonna get that.
 Because you're just not.
 Jesus taught about tearing wheat growing up at the same time.
 - Yeah.
 - Yeah.
 - And we're just not skilled enough,
 and that's also not our job.
 And so be very, very cautious.
 I remember you saying in the midst of revival in Toronto,
 you would have people hosting news,
 radio shows and writing blog posts and books and papers about why it's not of God and they'd never
 come. And they hadn't come. There's people, well, one specific person, I mean, people wrote a book
 about why it wasn't God and they never had actually come. So you're just like, okay.
 When I get confident that I think I know what God's doing, I know I'm in trouble.
 Right. But I like to think about how good would I have been about evaluating Jesus' ministry?
 Right? I'm a young boy in Israel, and I hear about this person that some people are saying
 the Messiah. Right. And it's nothing like what you thought. I've been trained my whole life to
 look for the Messiah. Yep. And the particular day that I come to see is that the Messiah
 happens to be the day that Jesus is casting it over demon out of the demoniac in the Gerasenes.
 Sure. And so I show up and I don't actually quite know what's happening,
 but all I see is a herd of pigs throwing themselves off a cliff. Right. And I come to the conclusion,
 well, that's not God because where's that in the Torah? Right. And I leave thinking... Or flipping
 over tables in the temple or, you know, there was so many things that Jesus did that aren't
 what people expected.
 Yeah.
 For all the years that I traveled with John and Carol and all the exposure I've had, there
 are still times when I cannot tell if what's happening is the Holy Spirit, if it's the
 flesh of man or if it's demons.
 Right.
 Which sounds crazy.
 You would think it would be obvious.
 And to be clear, at times it's really obvious.
 Sometimes it's very obvious.
 Jesus is in the business of healing the sick, the devil isn't.
 So if somebody gets healed, that's amazing.
 That's not the flesh.
 Look at that, they got out of a wheelchair, they're walking.
 - Yeah. - Yeah, easy.
 - For the most part, the demonic's more obvious
 than knowing, is it just the flesh?
 Like is it somebody who's, I don't know, being emotional?
 - So the extremes are easy to score.
 - Sure, sure, sure.
 - But other times, I remember, I remember a time
 being with John and Carol and we were in,
 I forget where we were,
 I think it was Virginia Beach.
 I think that's what was happening.
 And I remember this because it was such a stark contrast.
 I was at the back manning a camera.
 So I'm like on a raised platform
 and Bill Johnson was speaking that night.
 And Bill is sharing a really poignant moving story
 about his father dying passing away from cancer.
 And a man comes up to me as I'm on the camera
 and he is ticked and he says to me,
 you were helping lead this thing,
 I need you to shut down those people.
 And I said, which people?
 And in front of Bill, as Bill is speaking,
 there are all these people who are rolling around
 on the floor laughing.
 And this person's feeling was really disrespectful.
 Like, there means so much noise,
 they're interrupting the story.
 I can't hear him properly.
 And it's really disrespectful.
 It can't be the Holy Spirit,
 because he's talking about the passing of his father
 and these people are laughing.
 - Yeah.
 - So again, I don't have a Holy Spirit guy, your counter.
 I really don't.
 - Right.
 - But I pray and I ask the Holy Spirit,
 like Lord, is this something we need to deal with?
 And the Holy Spirit is like, ah, that's me.
 - Yeah.
 - So I said, you know, I didn't want to say,
 well sir, you're wrong, 'cause the Holy Spirit told me.
 I just said, I'm really sorry, sir, that you can't hear.
 Can I move you to a different seat
 where it'll be less of an obstacle?
 And he said, well, that will solve one of the problems,
 and the problem is super disrespectful.
 And I said, sir, you know, Bill is well able
 to shut that down if it's disruptive for him.
 - Right.
 This is a man who loves revival culture,
 and he doesn't look off-put by it.
 - Right.
 - So that was one night.
 - Right.
 - The next night, I'm back, I'm manning the camera
 at the back of the auditorium,
 and there's a woman behind me,
 and she's lying on the floor,
 and she is again rolling around,
 and she's like between crying and laughing,
 crying and laughing.
 She's not bothering anybody at all,
 but as I'm running the camera,
 something in my spirit doesn't sit right.
 So I asked the Holy Spirit,
 "Holy Spirit, don't I need to do something?"
 And he said, "Just kneel down and ask her if she needs help."
 And so I get down from the camera and I kneel down beside her
 and say, "Ma'am, do you need help?"
 And she stops everything she's doing
 and just bursts into tears and she's just said,
 "I'm so desperate for God.
 "I was just thinking, if I do what I've seen other people do,
 "I'll get what other people have got."
 So in that case, it's flash, right?
 It's not bad flash.
 - No. - She's just doing--
 - I think this is what you're supposed to do.
 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 - It's no different than other people going to church going,
 I guess everybody stands and raises their hands
 or worship, I'll do that.
 - Right, right.
 - But she was humble and you know,
 so I got to pray for her and ask the Holy Spirit to come.
 But my point was there's two different situations
 you would have thought one is clearly not the Holy Spirit.
 - Yeah.
 - It's disruptive, it's in the way.
 - Yeah.
 - But actually turned out it was.
 And this other person who wasn't really bothering anybody,
 and it actually looked like what the people were doing
 the night before there was the Holy Spirit, and it wasn't.
 - Yeah, yeah.
 - So just let's all retire from being the flash police.
 - And I think we have a million stories like that.
 Like I was thinking about one of the services that we did in Iceland where the kids were
 seeing angels and deaf ears were opened and all that kind of stuff.
 And there is one of the guys that was on the stage, I think he was supposed to be a catcher
 or something had fallen over and was making so much noise.
 And you had come over and said, babe, like, well, I'm trying to speak.
 Yeah.
 And he's behind me to my left.
 Yeah.
 And I'm looking at the audience and the audience are not listening to me.
 They're looking at him.
 Right.
 and to you like, babe, he's a distraction.
 - Yeah.
 - Can you please get him off the stage?
 - Yeah, yeah.
 And then I asked the Holy Spirit
 and the Holy Spirit was like, don't touch it.
 I'm healing him.
 - And I remember getting frustrated with you.
 Like you're leaving me out to dry here.
 - And I was literally like, I'm not doing it.
 I'm not doing it.
 - And I persevere.
 - Yeah.
 - And I get off the stage and I'm like, babe, why don't you help me?
 - Yeah.
 - And you were like, I think it was the Holy Spirit.
 - Right.
 And then at the end, we end up finding out
 he'd had a physical healing with his jaw
 and all that kind of stuff.
 but he was also someone who was, you know,
 struggling with suicidal thoughts and depression
 and all the kinds of things.
 Like he got a complete healing, like his, you know,
 no more depression, whatever.
 In fact, we saw him about six months later
 when we came back to do another school.
 And I did not recognize him.
 Because his face and his eyes and everything were so different
 that I literally was like, no, I know faces,
 I remember faces, I have never seen you.
 And he's like, I was that guy on the floor.
 - Oh my gosh.
 One of the things that we were saying to the people that were running the school is typically
 in those situations, I ask and then about a minute and a half later, I ask again, like,
 just Holy Spirit, what do you want to do?
 And he may say, just leave it for right now.
 Just, you know, and so you, okay.
 And then I ask again, like, I don't sort of just leave it for an hour, but I just keep
 asking every couple of minutes, are we still good?
 Is there anything that you want to do?
 And whatever.
 And you're just partnering and listening.
 I bet I know where you learn that or who you learn that from.
 Yes.
 'Cause that is exactly what John would do.
 Yes.
 Well, and that's what they trained us to do.
 Like, hey, you don't have to freak out.
 And people forget that when the revival in Toronto happened,
 it was just as crazy for everybody there
 than it was for every single for the first time.
 But one of my favorite stories that John tells
 is he was asking the Lord about a particular manifestation.
 People falling down, I think it was.
 And he said, Lord, I don't stand why you do that.
 And the Lord said, John, you don't understand women.
 what makes you think you'll understand me.
 (laughs)
 - I love it.
 - John told a story about how he nearly shut down
 the revival, right?
 - Yeah.
 - And the Holy Spirit said,
 "Hey, if you will just check with me, I'll help you."
 - Yeah.
 - So point number one is I think don't deputize yourself
 as the flash police.
 - Yes.
 - Point number two, I think is brilliant,
 is ask the Holy Spirit.
 - Yeah.
 - And keep asking the Holy Spirit.
 - Yeah.
 - 'Cause he'll not leave you as orphans.
 - Yeah.
 - It's his good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
 - Yeah.
 He will help you know what to do.
 - Yeah, and I think realize that our own judgments
 and perceptions about what revival should look like
 about what the kinds of things the Holy Spirit will do
 are also gonna play into that.
 And so you need to be aware,
 we're almost always listening with a filter
 and we wanna be sort of going, hey--
 - Give me an example of that.
 - Well, I keep thinking about it,
 and I don't know if this is John or Bill Johnson
 or somebody wiser than me said,
 you know, there's the order of the cemetery
 and then there's the order of the nursery,
 or the preschool.
 And both, there's order there,
 but they look completely different.
 One's dead and the other one's full of life
 and it may look like chaos,
 but it's the best kind of chaos ever, right?
 - Because there is order and structure.
 - Because there is order and structure,
 whether you can see it or not.
 So I feel like often the Holy Spirit is doing stuff
 that to us we're saying,
 but the cemetery is quieter,
 so then I can minister properly and whatever.
 And that's, I think in my experience,
 rarely how the Lord is actually orchestrating something.
 Usually it's more the preschool,
 and it's very individual to different people.
 So I mean, I think you ask if you're leading the meeting,
 but you also ask, if you're praying for somebody,
 Lord, what are you doing with this person?
 Well, how do I bless what you're doing with this person?
 - Or if you're going, if you're going to check something out,
 'cause you heard about something,
 ask the Holy Spirit.
 Don't come to your own conclusion.
 - Yeah, I think it's just really important
 to not be the professional in the room regardless of,
 and it makes me think about,
 I think we kind of referenced this a little bit
 at the beginning, is you know, historically,
 if you think about historical revivals,
 it is usually the people from the previous revival
 that missed the next one,
 because God does something just a little bit different,
 and they say, "Well, no, I know revival,
 "I live through revival, and this is what revival looks like,
 "and that isn't what revival looks like."
 But historically, God doesn't move the same way each time.
 You'll see elements that look similar.
 But a lot of people, I think, got tripped up in Toronto
 'cause they're like, no, this revival is supposed
 to look like this and it just didn't look like that.
 - Well, I've even heard people say about
 what's going on in Asbury going,
 well, it can't be revival because there's no signs
 when there's miracles happening.
 And I'm like, do you have a minute?
 - Yeah.
 - But that might not be what that revival's about.
 - Maybe it's a prayer revival 'cause my understanding
 is it started in a prayer meeting that hasn't stopped.
 I think it's just really important to un-deputize yourself
 as like the person who has to know what's going on.
 And it's human nature we want to know
 'cause that's what makes us feel safe.
 And the truth is sometimes with God,
 we just have to trust and we don't get to know often actually.
 - Yeah.
 - Yeah.
 - I would say walking by faith, not by sight means.
 - Yes.
 - We don't know.
 - Right.
 - Yeah.
 I think point number three
 would be don't despise the day of small beginnings.
 - Yeah.
 It comes back to what you're saying that we have an understanding or we think we have an understanding of what revival should look like.
 And if it's not that, then it's not revival.
 Yeah.
 And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
 God's so creative.
 He doesn't need to do the same thing twice.
 Yeah.
 And before revival is a full harvest, it's, you know, shoots.
 Yeah.
 And be careful not to, you know, break those things.
 Yeah.
 In your judgments.
 Yeah.
 Or be critical of it while it's still growing.
 And I think the fruit really is what's going to tell you what happened and you're not going to see fruit for a while.
 Like if you think about any kind of tree that's growing fruit, you're not going to, again,
 harvest the fruit for months to sit now and say, "Well, I don't see any fruit."
 Maybe you need to wait a hot second and just see what happens and see what the testimonies are
 out of. Or speak to the people who've been there. People speak to the people. What's the
 testimony of their life transformed? Yeah. But some people will have immediate fruit.
 And some people won't have immediate fruit
 that they can like, this is what God did.
 They just know, oh, something happened.
 Maybe they don't even realize what happened.
 Kind of like, you know, your testimony
 when you came back from Toronto the first time.
 Until much later.
 And then you're like, oh, wow, God, you did do something.
 I think you wanna wait for fruit as opposed to like,
 well, this doesn't look like what I expected.
 Or, you know, it's in its infant stages.
 you can't really tell what it's gonna be.
 - John would describe that as a difference between
 taking a Polaroid and taking a movie.
 He said, "So you go to a meeting."
 I go, "Again, ooh."
 You know, I don't even repeat this 'cause it's so critical.
 But I've spoken to people who are like,
 "Yeah, I saw videos of it.
 "Just listen to a bunch of people worshiping."
 I'm like, "A bunch of people lost in worship
 "can be the hallmark of revival."
 - Right, right, right.
 - But what's happening is people are looking
 at a 15 second reel on Instagram.
 Or looking at a Polaroid and going,
 But you need to, you know, John would describe, you come to one of our meetings,
 you see somebody screaming at the top of their lungs, take a photo and go, "Yeah, well, that can't be
 good." But have a video. What was their life like before? Yeah. What was it like after? Like,
 record the whole thing. What was the impact of what happened in those meetings? Right. To determine
 what's going on. Yeah. Number four would be the importance of recognizing it's okay to not be okay.
 Yeah. And what I mean by that is I'm almost positive that on Monday morning when we went to
 legacy. Yeah. And there's a room for the people and there's people laid out and doing worship
 and there's another group of people who are just, you know, stepping around. Yeah, laying in some
 that are crying and some are standing. I guarantee that you're probably going to find two extremes.
 Yeah. One, like, oh my gosh, this is the Holy Spirit. I hope they don't touch it and we don't
 have to move into like classroom style teaching. Right. On another end, oh God, this makes me feel
 so uncomfortable. I don't even think this is God. I hope somebody transitions this.
 Right. And what I want to say to both people is it's okay to not be okay. Yeah.
 It's okay to not be feeling what everybody else is feeling. Yeah. It's okay to be uncomfortable.
 Okay. To be uncomfortable. Again, as humans, we don't like that.
 It's okay to go experience it and then review it later. Yeah. Like just be okay because otherwise,
 we get ourselves in knots. One of my, I have so many favorite stories, but one of my favorite
 stories that I heard about Toronto, a brethren man, and I'm from the brethren, which is probably
 a while of the story. So it's the kind of family of churches I grew up in, who would traditionally
 be staunch cessationists, so deeply suspicious of a move of the whole issue. And this one guy went,
 which I applaud, he actually went rather than listen to other people's criticism, and he stood
 at the back of the church and he folded his arms and he was just like, "Well, this isn't God."
 And he looked at it and he stayed for a little bit later and he said, "I had this thought that
 sounded like, but I never got finished." Well, perhaps it could be and he said, "I never got
 to finish, perhaps it could be God because then I was hit by the Holy Spirit on the floor."
 Right.
 And he would never have gotten to the second place if he wasn't comfortable in the first place.
 Okay.
 - Yeah, yeah. - But we actually have to be
 where we're at. - Yeah.
 - I remember my first experience of Toronto going there
 was an experience of just horror for me.
 And let me explain what I mean by that is,
 I had been baptized by the Holy Spirit
 a couple of years before.
 I didn't know what had happened to me.
 I didn't have terminology, I didn't have language for it.
 - Right, 'cause you grew up brethren.
 - So I started doing all this research,
 started reading all these books,
 and I discovered what do you know
 that's actual move of God that's happening
 in my time right now, it just is in a different country,
 in a different continent.
 This can be solved, I can buy a plane ticket.
 So I save up all my money, I train fast every month,
 and before I go there, I fast for five days.
 So if anybody's ready to receive from the Holy Spirit,
 C'est moi!
 - Right. (laughs)
 - And I show up to the mothership,
 hungry, desperate, as open as I can be,
 and I can't feel the Holy Spirit at all.
 and worse, I think everybody's nuts.
 And it's hard to know if I think people are nuts
 because I'm not receiving what they're receiving,
 or because I'm genuinely, you know,
 I'm just deferring my pain.
 But I remember one night, Carol, who at the time,
 I didn't know, had gone off the stage
 and she was, quote, throwing fireballs at people.
 And I remember just rolling my eyes, like, really people?
 This is how undignified we've got, you know?
 And other people are like, oh, it's great.
 And I'm like, okay, so now you're placating this nonsense.
 Now, what I'm saying is very critical, but actually where I was was critical.
 I wouldn't have helped myself by faking that I wasn't critical.
 I was critical.
 I was hurt.
 I was desperate.
 I was upset that they're getting touched and I'm not getting touched.
 And I think there's something about God honoring where you're at rather than honoring what
 you're pretending you are.
 Yeah.
 To read the Psalms.
 David is often not a good Christian.
 You know, he's saying things you shouldn't.
 I'm reading Job at the moment and Job is just laying out stuff.
 And I think there's something about the authentic cry of the heart of the Lord loves.
 And on that particular night, I was heartbroken because I thought this was revival.
 And it isn't.
 It's just some crazy lady throwing fireballs.
 Right.
 But the next night I went to church, they did a testimony times.
 And a woman got up and said, I want to share a testimony because I was here last night.
 And there were some ladies throwing fireballs.
 And I thought it was crazy.
 And I was like, Amen, sister.
 Okay.
 Finally, someone speaking the truth.
 And then she said, I thought she was crazy until she got to my row and she threw a fireball.
 But when the fireball hit me, my deaf ear opened and now I can hear.
 Wow.
 And in that moment, I went from critical to desperate.
 I just burst into tears, just realizing the state of my heart.
 I wouldn't have understood the state of my heart if I hadn't allowed myself to be
 present with the state of my heart.
 So I want to encourage you that when you're, we don't want to be people who are
 evaluating the move of God. But of course, we are called to the discern the spirit. So I can't guess
 we do it. But like when you're, if you go to Asbury or if you're at Lee University or if something
 is happening and you don't understand it, it's okay to not understand it. You're not disqualified.
 But just hold a heart of truthfulness and honesty and it's going to be okay.
 Because I think sometimes we put so much pressure on ourselves that, you know, again, I'm not a good
 Christian because I'm not feeling the Holy Spirit like they are. Well, unfortunately, you don't even
 know if they are or not. They might be faking it because I think this is what you need to do.
 But if we can just be truthful with God and truthful with ourselves, the Lord will really honor
 that. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. So what's number five? Number five, or the fifth thing I've learned,
 is that the Holy Spirit is robust. That yes, in Scripture, he's described as a gentle dove,
 Right? And we're told not to grieve him. But also my experience is that the Holy Spirit
 is fully God. Yeah. And we can grieve him. But a lot of the things we think we're going to do
 will grieve him are often superstitious. For example, okay, give me an example. Well, you give me an
 example because you told me this one revival breaks out your small 250 person church. Yeah,
 but now thousands of people from around the world are coming to your small
 250-sear church and you can't fit them in.
 You're violating fire codes every night.
 So you move to...
 - We bought a big, yeah.
 - Well, first of all, you moved to a hotel.
 - Yes.
 - But what's the overall concern?
 - We were using a bathroom for the bigger nights.
 Well, is the Holy Spirit gonna show up
 in a different building?
 - Right.
 - You know.
 - Right.
 Are we gonna grieve the Holy Spirit by moving?
 Is it something?
 Or even with Randy, we can't let Randy go.
 - Right.
 - Tell that story.
 - Well, I mean, again, I don't wanna tell it.
 Like I was part of the leadership, I wasn't.
 I was just part of the church.
 But yeah, I mean, there was some level of like,
 oh, if Randy doesn't stay,
 'cause Randy stayed for like five weeks,
 like then what happens is the Holy Spirit
 gonna leave, is he not gonna keep coming or whatever?
 And of course he did keep coming.
 And I think it had more to do with the hearts of,
 John and Carol in the church to host whatever this was
 until he was done.
 I think with all of those things again,
 it's bringing it back to the Lord
 and letting him talk to you about,
 'cause that's the voice of fear, isn't it?
 Fear, oh, if you move there, he's not gonna show up.
 - Right.
 - If it's so and so isn't involved,
 just not gonna show up.
 But, you know, so you don't wanna be listening to fear
 and letting it write the story
 or write what you're gonna be doing.
 - So that's just fear.
 - I also think like in terms of offending the Holy Spirit,
 like there's plenty of stories, like your story of like,
 this doesn't, this isn't God.
 And still you end up with an impact.
 I was not happy at all when God showed up in our little church.
 I mean, not at all.
 - You were making plans to leave the church.
 - I was actually grieving.
 I was like, I had this nice, safe, lovely church.
 And now it's crazy.
 And again, I didn't want the order of the preschool
 or the nursery.
 I liked the order of the cemetery.
 Not to say that it was a cemetery before,
 but you know what I'm saying?
 Like I couldn't recognize God in what I was seeing.
 I was like, people are laughing during the sermon.
 People are over, people are crying over the air.
 There's somebody laughing right next to them.
 I can see people's feet up in the air,
 which means they're the rest of them is on the floor.
 Like I'm like, what is happening?
 And as somebody who likes order,
 it just felt really scary to me.
 And so I'm literally like, Lord, I hate this.
 I don't want this.
 - I want to leave.
 - I want to leave.
 And the Holy Spirit could have said, "Could I just go?"
 - Oh, you hate what I'm doing?
 - Yeah, oh fine, be like that.
 - But instead, I literally got stuck to the floor,
 like, Velcro to the floor, four guys tried to pick me up,
 but they couldn't get me off the floor
 until the Holy Spirit unstuck me
 and then I was totally fine.
 But I was stuck to the floor for three hours.
 And I, I mean, I literally was like,
 I don't know what's happening right now.
 You know, and I'm freaking out.
 And so in the midst of this, I get stuck to the floor.
 Carol comes over and she says to me,
 and at this time, like, this is the very beginning
 of the revival like three days in.
 And Carol comes over and she says,
 "A.J., you need to choose who's gonna be in control,
 you or God?"
 And then she just left.
 And people now might go,
 "Yeah, 'cause Carol says things directly."
 Then she really didn't.
 She was way more shy.
 I mean, we had a relationship,
 but she was not,
 she didn't say things as flat out as that.
 But anyway, I was like,
 so I just started crying
 I'm lying there.
 I literally can't move a finger.
 And I'm like, "Lord, I just need to know if this is you."
 And Holy Spirit said to me,
 "Have you stuck yourself to the floor?"
 And I was like, and I just bald.
 And so I literally spent three hours.
 And I think, I can't remember how long it took,
 but it took longer than I wish before I was like,
 "Okay God, you can be.
 "You can be the one in control."
 And then I was able to get off the floor.
 And obviously I like agreed I'm not leaving.
 I'm gonna stay.
 - I was thinking of when you're telling that story,
 when I think about like the Holy Spirit is robust,
 I remember, I forget who told me,
 it was in the English Anglican,
 vicar, it wasn't David Pitches.
 They had invited John Wimber to come.
 And it was amazing.
 It was everything they wanted, you know,
 John Wimber spoke as Minister Team happened,
 people were getting healed, the Holy Spirit was there.
 And then John Wimber said,
 Okay, guys, we're gonna take like a 15-minute coffee break
 and then we'll come back for a second session.
 And everybody freaked out like, "You, you, you!"
 - You can't do that because--
 - You can't do that?
 - Right.
 - The easier he's gonna leave and he's like, "It's okay."
 - Right.
 - And so they took a 15-minute coffee break.
 - Right.
 - And then when they came back, it just all started again.
 - Right.
 - I mean, I love that you say that we did nightly meetings
 for eight months.
 - Yeah, yep.
 - Back-to-back meetings.
 - Yeah.
 - Enter onto four eight months
 and then we realized we need to take a night off
 so we can get laundry done.
 - And buy groceries and--
 But will he be offended?
 Will he keep coming?
 If we, and he was faithful.
 - He was fine.
 We were allowed to take money.
 - So the Holy Spirit is robust.
 - Yeah.
 - And I think we can avoid a lot of our worry and our fear
 just by simply asking him.
 All right, my last thought, it kind of ties everything.
 There's lots of overlap between them, but like,
 I don't think you're gonna be able to miss God
 if you're hungry and humble.
 - Yeah, I think, yeah, tie it all up.
 If you don't come in like an expert,
 If you come in with a hungry heart to just,
 okay God, what are you doing?
 And what is here for me?
 And just stay hungry.
 I don't think you can miss God.
 - No.
 - And I think not just in terms of like revival meetings,
 but in life.
 - Right.
 - I don't think you can miss God.
 If you're gonna stay in conversation with him,
 if you're gonna keep asking questions,
 if you're gonna keep your heart soft
 and deal with stuff as he brings it up and all that.
 'Cause I think you can't miss him.
 So we're not experts on revival.
 - Nope.
 - We've been...
 - In a lot of crazy meetings.
 - We've been a lot of crazy meetings.
 - Yeah.
 - And we're excited about what's happening near our house.
 We are excited to go check out, we have not yet.
 And just in the last couple of days,
 I've just seen enough on social media that I'm like,
 "Okay, here's some things that you might wanna consider
 as you're considering is this revival or is it not?"
 - Yeah.
 - We're praying for revival.
 We're excited about God moving in America.
 Yes.
 And let's not be experts.
 Yeah.
 So good.
 Do you have a listener's question today?
 Oh, I have a listener's question.
 But you say that and I feel...
 No, it's a good question.
 It's a good question.
 Okay.
 My question is, how do you lead people into freedom if they really have been tormented
 if they're experiencing torment?
 I believe it should be easy as God is so much more powerful.
 So why does it sometimes require multiple prayers?
 And of course you've got some biblical examples of that.
 I think about Jesus praying for the blind man,
 and Jesus is pretty good at healing the sick.
 Got a pretty spectacular track record.
 - He does, yeah.
 - And in this case, the guy was like,
 you know, I can see, you know, man walking like trees.
 He wasn't perfectly healed.
 So Jesus prayed again.
 So we might have to ask,
 why did Jesus need to pray for a second time?
 I think in one sense to encourage us
 to be faithful and to system prayer.
 But then there's also the situation where the disciples,
 who, by this time are pretty good at casting out demons,
 Jesus comes down from the amount of transfiguration
 and he's met by a person saying,
 "Hey, your disciples couldn't cast out this demon."
 - Right.
 - And so Jesus delivers him.
 And they say, "Hey, how come we couldn't do it?"
 And Jesus offers him another insight.
 Hey, that kind of only comes out by prayer and fasting.
 - Sure.
 - And I remember speaking to Betsy and Chester
 Kylstra about this.
 Like we did their thorough format.
 - Yeah.
 - The seven day healing ministry.
 And at the end of it, I'm like,
 "Well, if God is sovereign and God is good,
 "why didn't He deal with all of that already?"
 Like we've spent years in inner healing.
 Why now are we getting to this?
 - Yeah.
 - And he used this great example.
 I forget the Bible verse, but it was a promise given
 in the Old Testament that when Israel was going to take
 over the land, the Lord said, I'm not gonna drive out
 all of the enemies all at once.
 - Yeah.
 - Because then it would be overwhelming for you.
 Like there would be so much land to manage and take care of.
 I'm actually gonna, you know, drive them out as you move,
 I will move them onwards.
 And I think in the instance of when you and I went and got ministry from the Kylstra,
 I think if the Lord tried to deal with that years earlier, we wouldn't have had the emotional
 maturity or the spiritual framework to be able to handle that.
 And it actually would have been traumatic rather than healing.
 Yeah, but it could be any number of reasons.
 Could be so many reasons.
 And it doesn't mean you did anything wrong by praying.
 And it definitely doesn't mean that the person is too far gone and can't be held.
 I think about one other example. This is not directly related to this, but it's an answer I've found helpful before.
 Let's say you're praying for someone, let's say somebody comes to you and they need prayer for a headache.
 Yeah.
 And you pray for them to be healed and they don't get healed.
 But it actually turns out you didn't need to pray for healing, you needed to pray for deliverance,
 because the headache wasn't caused by physical sickness, the headache was caused by spirit of infirmity.
 Right.
 And God in His mercy is not gonna heal the symptom,
 but leave the demon.
 And so when you pray for healing and they don't get healed,
 and you ask the Holy Spirit, why don't they get healed?
 They charge you, it's a demon.
 In His mercy, He would rather have a demon removed
 than have you have temporary relief from a headache,
 but a demon still present.
 - Oh yeah, okay.
 - It's all part and parcel of walking with the Holy Spirit
 and getting insight.
 That last example makes sense.
 You look a little critical.
 - You lost me for a second, but I understood.
 - Okay.
 If you want to ask us a question, go ahead and head over to alynandaj.com/ask.
 If you want the show notes for this week's episode, go to alynandaj.com/291.
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 when you're listening to this, go ahead and do that right now while you're thinking about
 doing it.
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 Yeah, so good.
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 We hope we have a great week and we look forward to being back again in your ear holes next week.
 Ear holes. Lovely.